And Agnostics.

@Storm1752 absolutely,I just responded directly to the poster's phrase!

Good points.
What party should an anti-Marxist support?
IMHO the U.S. desperately needs a strong, centrist party of independent representatives.

@PBuck0145 Any? Except the Communist Party USA, I suppose.

There are no major Marxist parties in American politics, and no major parties or candidates advocate marxist dogma. Not even Bernie Sanders, a Democratic Socialist. Marxism means collective ownership, collective planning, and collective control- a utopian ideal or nightmare, depending on your point of view. Oddly enough, it was also how the early Christians lived, according to Acts, but not how Religious Right Christians want to live now.

If you think that any major party or candidate in American politics is espousing Marxism, either you've been deeply deluded, or you're deluding yourself. Or you're trolling, also a possibility.

@Paul4747 Right backatcha about the delusion. "Democratic Socialism" is an oxymoron. Socialist governments invariably regress into tyranny. I prefer socially responsible liberal capitalism.

@PBuck0145 Tell it to the Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians, ranked #2, 3, and 4 in highest living standards in the world last year, and all democratic socialist governments, supporting free market economies. It is possible to have the best of both; a free market and a safety net. It's mainly Americans that seem to think a gain for one is automatically a loss for someone else.

Economist George Lakey wrote (in Viking Economics):

Americans imagine that "welfare state" means the U.S. welfare system on steroids. Actually, the Nordics scrapped their American-style welfare system at least 60 years ago, and substituted universal services, which means everyone—rich and poor—gets free higher education, free medical services, free eldercare, etc.

The workforce is highly unionized, averaging around 60% between the three nations. The economies rely on a partnership between employers, trade unions and the government, whereby these social partners negotiate the terms to regulating the workplace among themselves, rather than the terms being imposed by law. Contrary to what you probably think, there's surprisingly little product regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in market freedom according to OECD rankings. They're also believers in strong property rights, contract enforcement and overall ease of doing business. (Probably because of all that raiding their ancestors did.)

The result, as described by The Economist, is "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while tempering capitalism's harsher effects. The paper declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".

Early retirement is common due to public pension plans. The Nordics rank highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

I don't know about you, but I could use a dose of socialism in my democracy.

@Paul4747 You are correct. You neglect to mention that "supporting free market economies" entails capitalism. The Scandinavian governments are socially responsible classical liberal capitalist, renouncing corporatism and crony capitalism.

@PBuck0145 I said "democratic socialist governments, supporting free market economies", and I meant it. Enjoy your potatos, I'm having potatoes.

That might be true. Since about 1970 academia has been dominated by promoters of Marxist indoctrination.

@PBuck0145 sounds like conservative bullshit to me.....

@Redneckliberal Haidt and Lukianoff are both liberals.
[amazon.com]

We are also not about money and profit over people which is, in my opinion, what the right or conservatism is about. Your mileage may vary.

I hope your comment is inaccurate. I am an atheistic humanist classical (non-leftist) liberal. Progressiveness implies advancement. Collectivism is regression.

@PBuck0145 well, you bandy around a lot of labels. Liberal is the American term for progressive, as I believe. Non leftist liberal seems odd to me. What are you, centrist? Then be a centrist. Are you conservative? Then be conservative. What is your 'collectivism'? Another word for the evil 'socialism', then own that misconception. For a democratic socialist like me, who believes in a mixed economy of private and government enterprise, progressive social values, and a safety net to avoid extremes of inequity, there is nothing regressive in any other that. Oh, and I'm an atheist as well, who believes in science, logic and reason, from which the notion of a just society flows with perfect consistency.

@David1955 I prefer the phrase "socially responsible liberal capitalism" to "democratic socialism". Socialist government too often degrade into tyranny, making "democratic socialism" an oxymoron.

Blimey, what rock have you been living under?

@davknight Isn't "little more than epitaths" almost akin to grave name calling?

A refreshingly unbiased reply. Thank you.

epitaphs s/b epithets False equivalence argument.

@waitingforgodo Sorry, but my eyes get tired, if I'm up past my bedtime!

"Many atheists and agnostics hold fascist beliefs. Some are Marxist, or even Anarchist in orientation. But most would fall somewhere in between."

Well I'd love to see some proof of this wild generalisation.

This post and comments has produced more political label vandalism than I've seen for a long time. And there seems to little or no concern about definitions as per political science and political philosophy. Typical of the age we live in: just make up your own reality and say it's so.

" He who journeys the Highways and By-ways of Life by traveling ONLY in the centre of the roads ONLY ever sees what it directly ahead of him BUT misses the all other things around him." - William Anthony, 2011.

@Triphid "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos." - Jim Hightower

THANK YOU, just how I feel. And I may memorize it to repeat to fascista repugnicans. I know many many many.

As I am ready to be first in line to my vaccine, I find myself with fewer friends. I dislike stupid people, and most, not all, repugnicans are stupid.

Seriously did those people sincerely think DJT would NOT throw them under a bus, or would actually march with them. Actually have risk that he might need to atone for? DJ does everything through corporations, which shields him from responsibility.

Any one who believed him should be sterilized. They should not be allowed to reproduce.

And on a side note, did they ever think, that by letting the virus have it's way , they get rid of "welfare queens" and people from ShitHole countries??(These are Donald's words not mine) As well as old people and people who have less then perfect health. Just wipes them out.

Thank you. I was hitherto unaware of that Pew Research study.

My profile does not lie. You appear to be implying that not being a leftist is an indication of fascism or racism. There exist both right-wing fascists and left-wing fascists.

@PBuck0145 False equivalence argument (fallacy)

I understand, but would say facts have no bias. Facts are facts regardless of how you feel about a particular fact. Many facts are unpleasant to many beliefs. Examples are legion.

@Healthydoc70 I believe that @BitFlipper's comment is sarcasm.

Progressiveness implies advancement. Collectivism is regressive.
See article 4 of:
[humanists.international]

@PBuck0145 No the collective is people organizing to throw off their slave Masters and achieving freedom. You don't have to be black and offspring of former black slaves to be a slave yourself. Ayn Rand was a reactionary survivor of authoritarian fascism, so I can understand her point of view. I CANNOT understand YOUR point of view

@Storm1752 As a classical liberal, I promote individual liberty and responsibility. Both are prerequisites for cooperation and effective group action.

@PBuck0145 Sure, free, independent people can CHOOSE to surrender some their freedom to become part of a collective, because it is advantageous to them as individuals. They do so not because they are forced to, but of their own free will.
It sounds like you have a dark view of certain individuals who join a community and/or use said community to escape personal responsibility. In other words, you ascribe to the cynical opinion there are "makers" and "takers," another reactionary Randian concept.
Sure there are always those who will take advantage of others, but is that any reason to weaken or destroy communal relationships? To construct a whole ideology based on the misdeeds of a few?
Socialism in this democratic context is a VOLUNTARY arrangement. It is not authoritarian, imposed on people from some malevolent despot. It is constantly being adjusted, amended, hopefully improved, over time. It is therefore NOT an ideology.

@creative51 I love it when people capitulate by regressing to ad hominem!

@PBuck0145 I'm not attacking you, only your assumptions.
Please address mine, or hold your peace.

@Storm1752 I applaud and have respect for people who choose to cooperate for the greater good. I am one of those people.
Venezuela once had the highest average standard of living in Latin America. Why is every Venezuelan who can do so now fleeing the country?
You are very passionate about collectivism. You could re-direct your enthusiasm towards ideologies and systems which have historically proved to enhance human well-being.

@Storm1752 I think your reply "I'm not attacking you, only your assumptions. Please address mine, or hold your peace." erroneously attributes my reply to @creative51 as being directed towards you.

@PBuck0145 Again, Chavez was an authoritarian top-down dictator Not applicable.
I was talking about leaders who remained accountable to the electorate

@Storm1752 Maybe this will get your attention.

@PBuck0145 Uncalled for.

@Storm1752 Incorrect. You need to be open to evidence and new ideas.

I love it when "debaters" capitulate by resorting to ad hominem!

@PBuck0145 Just telling as I see it, that's all, just telling it like I see it.

Everyone?

@yvilletom Well the people who read the posts. If I read a post and someone is name calling or whatever, shouldn't I, as the reader, call it out?

@Flowerwall Think about what a “should’ or “shouldn’t” means. That’s why I don’t “should” on myself.

@yvilletom I know what it means and I know what I should do in that situation.

What party should an anti-Marxist support? The U.S. desperately needs a powerful third, centrist party of independent representatives.

@PBuck0145 The US would have a centrist party if independents wanted one.

Added alliterative appeal!!!

Educate me.

@pbuck0145 impossible.

@Healthydoc70

@PBuck0145 And your point?? Very weak, Dude. Are looking to win an argument? You are like 12 year old looking for a trophy. I will buy you one.

@Healthydoc70 I decline the trophy. I simply would like to know why "The answer is so obvious that your question is unworthy of a response." Not an unreasonable request. At this time, the answer is not obvious to me.

Apologies. Try it now.

Classical liberals make far better and more socially responsible atheists than do woke, academia-indoctrinated regressive leftists.

I have no idea what a "woke, academia-indoctrinated regressive leftist" is. Sounds like something you made up.

Well I don't know, if someone tells me they're conservative, and that means they hate government except for things they like, hate unions, hate taxes unless poor and middle class people pay them, hate national health care, hate spending on education, or a social safety net, and they tell me how they believe in 'individualism' and 'libertarianism' and all this from their fancy cars, big houses, and holiday homes, then I'm thinking some labels tell you a lot about some people and are, by definition, useful.

@David1955 Whatever works for you.

Not a sufficient reason for leftism.
[humanists.international]

Not all of you. I just had this discussion today and was told "I don't care about people's well being" by a Leftist.

@PBuck05 evidently it is

@PBuck05, @Flowerwall no true Scotsman

@Heathenist Yes, you defined your technique well. I didn't have exact words, but what you did is the very definition. Thanks for pointing it out!

@Heathenist A statement like "evidently it is" requires accompanying evidence.