Too many atheists are hostile to the religious. I understand the animosity but I don't think it is deserved.
Hostility toward believers only further solidifies their intellectual and emotional captivity. They are fearfully bonded to life-long conditioning. Respecting their inability or unwillingness to be emancipated and settng a better moral example can inspire curiosity.
Any criticism and explained hostility should be toward 'isms' holding them captive by fear. Fear and ignorance combined with admonitions to distrust their native ('god given' reasoning faculties are what entraps them.
Get them to reason by polite example and expansion of curiosity by pointing out how captors keep them herded and how sll power and benefits go to those in charge. Most will eventually emancipate themselves.
I don't care about their emotional captivity. They can believe whatever they want. I just know that it's a fairytale. I don't care about these people either way if they stay out of my grill.
Agreed, and well said. The old saying 'You catch more flys with honey than veniger' is very true.
@barjoe Outward displays of 'not caring' about people go a long way toward confirming lies they are told by theological captors about all atheists.
It might feel good personally to lash back out of our own frustrations over people being unable to reason 'outside their little boxes' but it only serves to cause them to feel more secure in their 'safe zones'. Better example ALWAYS causes curiosity because it doesn't comport with what they are falsely told.
I was once initially insulted by a close friend who said I was more 'Christian' than any of the Christians he knew from church, family, etc. In my scope it came as an offensive comparison. In his, it was a high compliment and with a slight delay, I took it as such. If another atheist said it I'd Likely have remained insulted. All just a matter of frame of reference.
If horses could talk and I as a wild horse visited another horse in a barn who told me I was like the horses out in the pasture, the sentiment might be similar. What can one see from a stall?
@Silver1wun It's not a outward display. I really could take or leave people in general. People can think whatever they want to. If they still believe in Santa Claus I'm not one to clue them in. I don't want to hear about their silly beliefs. When they come with their religious nonsense I ignore them. This website is great. I can express my hatred of religion and all it's followers without having to hear the crybabies cry.
Well. to me I think there is a big difference between bashing a religion, and bashing a person. I'm all for the religion bashing, but never will I bash a person.
Well. Maybe a little bashing of the flerfers. lol.
JMHO
I can't be kind about this. The religious who vote for Trump because they think he was sent by jebus are contributing to their own destruction and mine because of his stupendously insane destructive environmental policies put in place to maximize profits for the rich capitalists. In effect they are killing me, so I have a right to bash them in self defense.
If only religion was not used to shade so many guilty, immoral, and unethical individuals then maybe it would be something to actually tolerate peacefully!!!
Sir, once again, you hit the nail on its head. hilarious.
I agree. We are all here not because we hate religion, I would gather, but because we have found, with reason, that religion is limited and is based upon societal norms from where you happened to be born.
I think it would be fair to say that most of the people here do hate relation, which is not to say they hate the believers. That distinction is necessary as many people of faith are victims of their upbringing. However, the behaviour of each believer varies and some are deserving of hatred. Did you see the recent post of the young islamic woman whose face was burned and disfigured?
It must depend on what type of religious you are talking about. For those that are religious as defined by biblical text, I would not understand why any one would want to be hostile towards them except those involved in corruption.
Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27
Wow. That was a load of BS if I've ever read any.
@VeronikaAnnJ You are agreeing with Word?
I am very hostile because I have endured a life of hostility from them. I was nice for the first forty years. LOL
Everyone handles their atheism differently, and reacts differently at different times. When I first chose to become an atheist, I was an "angry atheist" and was very hostile to all religions. Even then, though, I was not hostile to the followers, unless their actions or words warranted it.
My level of hostility or aggression is usually matched to their level of devotion, and their ability to have a conversation about our beliefs (or lack thereof). If they won't listen, can't agree to disagree, and insist on selling me on their version of the After-Life Pyramid Scheme, then my hostility grows.
But if I'm being honest, it's hard not to be hostile to even the most understanding religious devotee - depending on their view of the after-life. If a religion wants to preach that the non-believer deserves death and eternal torment for simply not believing in their brand of god, regardless of how well they live their life, maybe the hostility is justly earned...
" Undeserved hatred" you suggest.
What about the thousands of Atheists, etc, etc, that were tortured and murdered by Xstian Zealots in ages past?
Ever wonder exactly how many of your own distant relatives were subjected to horrors like that?
Have you ever bothered to sit and think of what could be still happening to this day IF there were no Laws passed that allowed us to speak freely, live freely, think freely and be Atheists, etc?
Ponder, IF you will, upon this scenario, A Xstian Zealot mob kicks in the door of YOUR home, snatches up your parent/s or siblings, drags him/her/them away, tortures him/her/them mercilessly and then MURDERS him/her/them PUBLICLY whilst proclaiming loudly that their God is perfect, kind, loving and your parent/s were evil, blasphemous Heathens who deserved to die.
Would you not feel anger, hatred, etc, etc?
Virtually all Nazis and Germans who turned a blind eye were church going Catholics and Lutherans. Nazis threw jewish children out of the windows of buildings as they took away the parents to Auschwitz
@Healthydoc70 Not that I'm Pro-Nazi in any way, shape or form, but IF what you say is cottect then how is it that there were so many Jewish children and even babies sent to the Concentration/Death Camps?
@Deb57 I did NOT say anything like that.
I know about the atrocities committed by the Nazis in WWII both from Documenteries, History books and from discussions I've had with my very good Jewish friend, Itzaak, who, as he recently told me, who's family were Polish Jews originally and only survived the Camps they were in because the Allies arrived in the nick of time.
Sadly, only he and his younger brother survived though.
Typically I would agree with you. Under our new paradigm, what they are doing now is irresponsible and dangerous. As far as I am concerned, they are now bringing it on themselves! Worship online, don't congregate. It's too soon. Look at the two pictures I just posted.
I don't get into many discussions with religious people about religion any more. I've never been one to back down from a good debate, but I've learned there are very few out there today willing to look at facts and reason when it comes to their deities. But I certainly don't become hostile toward them, as long as they remain civil with me that is.
What the Captain says goes.
Well, there's a bit of everything everywhere. Among atheist people there are the good and the bad, just like among religious people. Many of my friends are religious, yesterday was the Muslim Eid and I texted a former manager who is still a good friend who is a Muslim. The religious fanaticism has caused loads of grief among people, yes, but I have no reason to hate a person because of being religious. Many are very respectful as well. I'm against religion as a collective because this kind of belief is so personal that it doesn't make sense to make it collective. Even inside the religious people, many don't take the Bible too seriously and even don't believe everything in it. I'm against, for instance, like a radical Muslim, that was (probably still lives there) living in England and preaching for the destruction of the nation that was sheltering him and even giving social welfare benefits. A friend of mine in Belgium has loads of Muslims as neighbours, some on the welfare, but, when it comes to do some work alongside the natives (my friend is an atheist as well) they simply don't deny, not only because that's what they were taught but also they know it's civilised behaviour. The best working environment I ever had was among Muslims, hard working honest people. I have friends who are Christians and very sound and educated people. So, the animosity should be only towards the nasty part of any group.
It depends on the religion. There are some very open minded people who are religious.
I am only hostile to the religious who are out to turn the US into a theocracy; this is the wet dream of Dominionist Evangelicals. I have no tolerance for deniers of science, supporters of hatred, haters of equality for all and those who are using the government to enforce their religious beliefs onto the rest of us.
I do not go out to start fights, but I will stand against these people and I will be hostile when the situation calls for it.
Also, one of the most hostile things one person can say to another is "you deserve to be tortured for an eternity in hell because you don't follow my god and his rules."
Just a note: I typically refer to god as "it," not he/she, his/her.
I think it's deserved but not necessary, it's like beating a puppy for crapping on the floor yesterday-ain't got a clue why your beating it.
I've been on both sides of the fence. There are some christians who are the sweetest people on earth and who love everyone and respect everyone. They truly put others before themselves.Then there are some who are on a power trip and claim they are anointed by god and what they say is 100% fact. Alot of preachers are in the second category and general lay people and in the first.
The ones I blame for the destruction of human morals, are the ones educated in religion, the ones tgat really understand the purpose and goals of religion, and preach it anyway. The followers, the sheep, are generally just trying to get along in life, and don't really see the destructiveness and harm of life they do.....really do think they're trying to do good. And YES!!!! I am and will be anti-theist, and hostile toward religion and those that try to represent it as a thing of value to the human good....It is not...
You obviously have not experienced evangelicals up close and personal. I have. My Grandmother was an Assemblies of God Christian fundamentalist. While she was a personally good and loving woman, the beliefs she espoused were pernicious. They do not support democracy and are intolerant of beliefs that differ from their own. They see nothing wrong and in fact aspire to gaining control of the government so they can impose their dogma on people who do not willingly convert. Their acceptance of magical thinking undermines the foundation of everything we have that reliably works: evidence based reasoning i.e. science. In fact William Barr has said that he thinks the Enlightenment is what started society down the wrong road. Just think about the implications of that point of view! Much like Barr, they have no problem with lying, cheating or doing whatever will put them in power since it is all for the purpose of fulfilling "god's will".
I'm very much aware that many religious people do not fit the above description and that many people are drawn to religion as one of the few free social supports left in our increasingly dystopian society. However when you look at the leadership, it is very much about power. The Atlantic had an interesting article about a Catholic group that has nearly taken over a small town in Kansas: [theatlantic.com]
On the surface it seems benign enough, until you see the cult-like underside. So it is not just evangelicals who brook no dissent when they are in charge. The authoritarian spirit is very much alive and well wherever people who claim to be doing "god's will" become the majority and are not stopped by some force outside their control.
Atheists have had a tendency to be seen as angry cranks, which explains why the term is toxic to many people. Humanist ideals are wonderful and atheists would get a fairer hearing if they put more emphasis on what they are for instead of being defined by what they are against. Promoting the values of humanism should be the next step to truly engage the many people who are moving away from religion, because it is not just going from believing in something to believing in nothing - it is believing in something better. However atheists should never forget what the opposition's end-game is: do as we say because any day is a good day for an auto-da-fé.
Thanks, but I was lucky in that my Father was a mainstream Christian and that may have been for social purposes. He didn't push religion relentlessly and excused my Grandmother on the grounds that she only had an eighth grade education and grew up in the south. None the less it was depressing and as I grew older it really drove a wedge between me and my Grandmother. They are absolutely obsessed and nothing is out of bounds, including emotional blackmail. It helped that I was and am a reader, which opened a whole new world of ideas to me,. I really pity people who grow up surrounded by a cult, especially if they don't have access to other points of view. Too many people who didn't grow up around them underestimate the danger posed to our republic because they absolutely want a theocracy, a Christian version of Iran. Now that Trumpy has forged a coalition of religious extremists, white nationalists and now conspiracy theory loons, everyone else needs to understand what a threat they pose, even though they are a numerical minority, so were the Bolshivics and the Nazis. It is easy to dismiss such a comparison as hyperbole, but you only have to look at what is happening with armed goons threatening governors while Trumpy cheers them on to see that it is not.
I hope you don't mind but I shared your post with friends. Beautifully stated.
As a practitioner of Zen Taoism I have recently incorporated Deism so that I can hit the dogmatic zealots from a believer of God. I think that position might carry more weight with a reader who's kind of on the fence about whether the God influence carries weight with them. I'm finding it also centers me on remembering we are all on a path and some are always wondering if they're still on the right trail.
I don't mind at all, I'm glad that you enjoyed what I wrote.
You are on the right track with approaching believers as a Deist, for many people - even people who claim to be non-religious, atheism is simply a toxic term. You are shut out from the moment the word appears in the conversation.
My view is that there could be other spheres of existence, it's not really that different an idea than the multi-verse some physicists consider possible. However since we can only interact with this one, if there is a guiding intelligence behind it all, there must be a reason why. The most obvious reason is that we are meant to concern ourselves with this world, not other ones that are beyond our ability to confirm. Had medieval intellectuals concerned themselves with the actual world they lived in rather than debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, think how much less wretched life could have been, even a few practical insights would have made the Dark Ages a lot brighter. Understanding this world and living in a way that respects its complexity and the needs of the other species who share it with us is challenge enough for homo sapiens. If there is some other existence that we graduate to, making a reasonably good go of this one will surely count for more than believing in this or that dogma.
I have many theist friends and I have no problem with religion for the most part. Theists are generally good people in my experience. I leave them to their beliefs and they leave me to my non-beleif. It’s worked pretty well so far.
How about the theists who believe Trump was sent by jesus to save us when all he is doing is increasing pollution with every wave of his hand which makes climate change worse and speeds up the destruction of the earth's ecosystem. In other words, he is killing all of us.
I have animosity to most religions, but not all. There are non-fundamentalist, non-morman, religions that I couldn't care less about. But in this country close to 50% of religious people are fundamentalist, with the rest being divided amongst the previously main stream churches. And it is the fundamentalists that hold power and I do hate their churches and the individuals who belong to them. You cannot separate a church from it's members as far as wrong doing.
Ever find me on Your porch pushing pamphlets? I think not.......
I only have animosity toward religious nuts who want to force their beliefs on me.
Too many everybody is against everybody at some time anymore. Science will win when the drones come for them first.