LINK Remember When Fascism Was a Catholic Problem?
A historical perspective on religion is essential to any meaningful debate on the subject. History shows how most (if not all) religions have, at certain times in history, been vulnerable to pathologies that reached the level of mass contagion before being contained and minimized. It’s educational from a how-did-we-get-here standpoint, and it offers constructive hints about the future.
The Roman Catholic Church is perhaps the best modern example of this. In the 20th century, Catholicism transformed from a quintessentially totalitarian institution to a largely benign cultural force — that is to say one that hangs on to some pretty terrible ideas but has less and less capacity to foist them on people against their will. In other words, it’s a textbook example of how religions can and do change with the times.
If anyone can't reach the above link, try this one: [outline.com]
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Given the opportunity, I'm sure they (the religious right) would take up their fascist old ways. It's only enlightened laws based on the First Amendment and the liberal education (especially in the sciences) that those laws protect that is presently keeping religious fascism at bay. And what is really scary is that right now we are seeing the erosion of the 1st Amendment separation between church and state with a variety of political appointments, such as Betsy De Voss to the Dept. of Education, Niel Gorsuch and Bret Kavenaugh to the Supreme Court, and William Barr to the Justice Department. They are grabbing the levers of power and are using them to push their own religious agenda forward in spite of the Constitution.
Flyingsaucesir
Level 8
July 23, 2020
0
@altschmerz
Solidarity Brother!
It always has been, still is, and always will be a Catholic problem....
Lizard_of_Ahaz
Level 9
July 15, 2020
1
Man, I avoided every humanities course I could as a kid. Made no sense to me then. Makes no sense now. I have no idea what faschism is, or even what catholism is. I don't care to argue or debate.
I just ask "is group A benefiting from the suffering of group B?" if yes, then fight group A. I don't care much for labels.
MakeItGood
Level 7
July 15, 2020
1
I grew up in a town of about 3500 people. Nearly everyone was a nazi sympathizer. That is they didn't think Germany did anything wrong during WWII. The town was also over 90% German catholic.
Theresa_N
Level 8
July 14, 2020
4
I have no idea if that's still true, they still vote repuglithug though. I haven't been there in years, too many bad memories.
And almost all Nazis were church going catholic or Lutheran
In present day language usage does the word "fascist" have a useful definition? The word has been used so carelessly that I cannot detect any consensus on what it means.
Fascism under Benito Mussolini had a defined political structure. Now it seems that people on the left apply the term to anyone they disagree with. Has it become a general purpose pejorative?
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I sincerely am curious as to what it means, if anything, in present day discourse.
dumasarok
Level 7
July 14, 2020
2
It does have a correct and useful usage the problem is the disinformation through lack of a real education in this country means it gets misused a lot just like the words "socialism" and "Communism" very few people understand them either. This is why you have idiot Trump voters who spout fascist ideology on a daily basis also saying stupid shit like "but Hitler was a socialist"....
@altschmerz narf
ppl all metaphorically marching to the same drummer, in files and rows, wearing metaphorical at least uniforms? The opposite of coat of many colors maybe? No dissent allowed? Im guessing
Was? Who says they're no longer fascists? The pope may say nice crap but the actions remain true to form. Pedophiles being punished or jailed? Nein! Transphobic and homophobic bashing, check, check. The article is another propaganda piece of shit. Priest died in concentration camps, perhaps. But who issued new names through baptism to all the nazi war criminals in the infamous Rat Lines so that the worst may live in peace on South America? Yep, the same church. This opinion piece you shared is full of shit.
Mofo1953
Level 9
July 14, 2020
2
@altschmerz you can't agree to disagree with facts dude, these are all facts, 100% true, not opinions, you might disagree with opinions but NEVER WITH FACTS!.
[theatlantic.com]
[religionandpolitics.org]
[dw.com]
@altschmerz of course I disagree, it has never "waned," the council was in 1962, nothing in the areas I mention have changed from "the past" because pedophiles still unpunished and protected, homosexuals and transgendered are still rejected and vilified., and they have never apologized for the rat lines which supported fascism, the only one I accept is the last one but that point is irrelevant to the points I made specific to Catholicism, the last statement refers to all religions having blind spots which is true and I have never disputed that.
Pope Pius XII, I'm pretty sure of it btw, and the College of Cardinals 'created' an Escape Route for Nazi War Criminals via the Vatican as early as 1942-43.
The 'cost' to these Nazi Fascists was assumed to be no less than 15% of the sum Total of the worth of the wealth stolen from the Jews, etc, etc, of Europe by those Nazis and held in their own personal possession.
The 'Rat-Line' as it later became known by the Allies ran directly to the Vatican and then, by various routes to Catholic Dominated countries in South America, Argentina being one particular destination for these War Criminals.
It was via this 'Rat-Line' that the likes of Mengele and Eichmann escaped the Nuremburgh Trails.
If one researches enough one WILL find that there is a kind of 'Prime Directive,' ( sincerest apologies to Star Trek and G. Roddenberry) instilled into almost every religion/cult, etc, etc,, especially the 2 main 'mongrel' off-shoots of the Judaeo/Abrahamic belief systems, that states firmly to the Preachers of those Initiates to teach their Faithfool followers " Do NOT what we Do, Do exactly what we tell you to do."
How much more a Fascist-Totalitarian as system can you get?
For example, The Pope plus his Circle of Cardinals hold sway over millions of Catholics in almost EVERY aspect of their lives, etc.
Even though they would have us believe, the Queen of England is little more than the Titular Head of the Church of England, the fact is that the Arch-Bishop Elect of Canterbury holds the reins just as does the Catholic Pope and his Circle of Cardinals, does anyone see a somewhat GLARING similarity here to what the Hierarchy of the Fascist-Totalitarian Nazi Party of the late 1920's - 1945 eras?
Totalitarianism IS rife throughout the 2 main mongrel off-shoots of the Judaeo-Abrahamic Belief Systems in my educated opinion and anyone can see it should they honestly and sincere wish to search for it deeply enough.
Triphid
Level 9
July 13, 2020
2
@altschmerz Not so 'strange' at all.
It was a money based thing all along plus, as we all know from past histories, the Vatican has always been a COVERT supporter of Anti-Semitism.
@altschmerz Hitler was hostile to Christianity, as he believed it made men "weak" and unwilling to do what needed to be done (in his own opinion, that is). Many top Nazis, on the other hand, were devout Catholics or at least pretended to be, not unlike the Mafia in modern times. There's no conflict between being religious and being a complete monster.
@altschmerz Well put.
Maybe it would be best to characterize it as "a certain type of belief in god." Or "a belief in a certain type of god"?
"I am a priest, not a fascist, fascists wear black and and go around telling people what to do, where as Priests....erm more drink?"
Father Ted
LenHazell53
Level 9
July 13, 2020
1
honestly fascism has been a problem since ancient humans began settling in communities. Way before catholicism.
redhog
Level 7
July 13, 2020
1
I'd say both Yes and No to that comment.
In some cases a Yes, but in others a No.
Unless, of course, you want to equate 'Tribal/Clan Leadership' with either Fascism or a Totalitarian regime system.
But, imo, by doing so one would be erroneous to say the least since there are vast differences between the two systems.
@Triphid no but once large enough settlements became city states yes. It was a mild generalization. Egypt was a religious oligarchy. But many of the Greek city states could have been considered fascist when compared to Athens. Many of the Kingdoms of middle ages Europe also could have been considered fascist.
@redhog All the ancient Civilisations had their religious systems, the Greeks with the Olympian Gods/Goddesses, the Romans with adapted versions of the Greek Pantheon, the Egyptians had their Pantheon of Elementals, later to be labelled by the Catholic Church as Gods, etc, btw, the Carthaginians, the Hittites, the Assyrians, etc, etc.
In ancient Egypt this claimyou make of a "religious oligarachy" did not actual arise UNTIL AFTER the Greeks under Alexander arrived though and the Greek Democracy Ideology only arose from being a theme for debate and discussion circa the time during and after the Battle of Marathon.
Yet a few centuries later, even the Greeks went back to having a Monarchy did they not?
LOL, Has there ever been a time when any political view has not been a problem?
There were priests who died in concentration camps.
Jolanta
Level 9
July 13, 2020
1
True but that was part of Hitler's programme (Generalplan Ost ) of eradicating Polish culture as non aryan not because they were catholics or priests.
The Vatican Turned a blind eye on the understanding that German would not bomb Rome or the Vatican itself.
@LenHazell53 Yes, true but not all priest agreed with it. Some died for their beliefs and actions.
The catholic church hierarchy supported the nazi's. Some individual priests did not, just as some protestant ministers did not, such as Bonhoefer.
None of them Catholic other than a few church dissidents....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz From December 1940, Berlin ordered the transfer of clerical prisoners held at other camps, and Dachau became the centre for imprisonment of clergymen. Of a total of 2,720 clerics recorded as imprisoned at Dachau some 2,579 (or 94.88%) were Roman Catholics. Kershaw noted that some 400 German priests were sent to Dachau.
@Jolanta Catholics not Roman Catholics....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz Did you miss the 94.88% being Roman Catholics?
@Jolanta You were misinformed.... Most of the clergy sent there were from Poland which was Greek Orthodox before the war.... Roman Catholics under Hitler took over those churches.... All though that region as Hitler took over Eastern and Greek orthodox clergy were sent to Dachau... The German priests were mostly protestants....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz I think you are misinformed. I used to live in Poland, my parents are Roman Catholic and none of them are Greek Orthodox and neither is anyone there that I know either.
@Jolanta Because during the war Hitler turned those churches over to the pope.... Did you live there before WW 2?.... Greek and Eastern Orthodox were persecuted heavily under Hitler and many went to camps alongside the Jews, were murdered by Germans or Fins, or just fled the country.... No small number went to Russia, or other countries where Orthodox churches were still open.
@Jolanta In case you weren't aware of it the Fins were staunch Roman Catholics and took every chance they had to commit genocide against Jews, Eastern and Greek Orthodox believers going back as far as the 30 years war in the early 1600s'
@Jolanta Next thing we know you will be trying to claim that they have never raped any altar boys and the corpses found in the septic tank in Ireland at a closed RCC home for unwed mothers were the work of people who wanted them to "look bad"....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz You are getting upset there.
@Jolanta No I am trying to educate ignorance.....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz Fancy that, so was I.
@Jolanta And I see I am failing to educate you.... My guess is you never paid much attention to any subject except for the one thing you were interested yet never did well at that either....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz Wow, what an unhappy person you must be. If you think it is sarcasm you are spouting then you are mistaken, oh you self educated person.
Fascism seems to be an American problem. It has been for a long time. Ask JFK, RFK and MLK (if you could) Fascism been here a long time, it's just been a fringe in the background. Now lives in the White House.
barjoe
Level 9
July 13, 2020
2
@altschmerz They're all Christians. In the US. WASP are the predominate fascists. JFK still is the only Catholic US President ever. Biden would be the second if he were successful. Believe it or not that still in 2020 is a strike against him.
@maturin1919 Every president we've ever had was a Christian. So they.all believe fairy tales. The fact that there's bigotry against Catholics in the US is not a good thing. I think all religion is bullshit, that's not the point, don't hate people for who they are. Unfortunately many Americans do.
@maturin1919 The point is voters won't pick a Catholic, Jew, Mormon an open atheist, forget it. It's not about the candidates beliefs, it's about the voting public being bigoted. Kennedy and Obama were accidents. If you read I said who not what they are. You don't hate people based on ethnic, racial or religious background. People do. Those people are voters. Their vote counts as much as yours does. The idea is to win an election. I think Biden, Catholic, can win. I don't think Bernie Sanders, Jew, can get elected. Religion qualifies
@altschmerz They'll never be a Jewish president.
@maturin1919 Deja Vu
@barjoe Ask Prescott Bush, McCarthy, FDR, and Smedlley Butler....
[arcadiapublishing.com]
@Lizard_of_Ahaz Agreed they were Nazi sympathizers and financial backers of Hitler. Traitors who attempted the overthrow of a duly elected government. This is a fact and thank you for the link about the Smedley plot.
@barjoe Henry Ford, GM's management, Coca cola, Bank of America, Chase, Bank, Citi Bank, all the old standard oil companies....
@Lizard_of_Ahaz Charles Lindbergh, Averil Harriman, Allen Dulles. Henry Ford is mentioned in Mein Kampf. Some credit him for instilling Hitler with anti-Semitic doctrine.
@barjoe Fred Koch who helped design some of the chemical plants that made war gases for Hitler and GM which if they hadn't supplied him with a huge reserve of Tetra Ethyl Lead Hitler would never have had a Luftwaffe, General Electric, and other large American corporations helped Hitler build the incinerators for his concentration camps....
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