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A lot of truth in this

Rudy1962 9 Apr 15
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2

this is a progressive/socialist group why are there people defending the establishment?

Because there is more than one narrow definition of progressive, and more than one tactic for achieving progressive aims. When you critique centrists, good; thoughtful, constructive criticism is needed. When you demonize and, to borrow the twitter phrase, smear ruthlessly, you are not helping the progressive cause. AOC, who is brilliant, btw, is smart enough to be both assertive AND work with centrists whenever she can find common ground. Many bloggosphere self-labeled progressives appear to sorely lack that skill.

I am old enough to have paid attention and noticed that the definition of progressive keeps shifting, often in as little a span of time as year to year. Yesterday's progressive champions become today's evil establishment, not to be trusted by self-righteously self-labeled "true progressives." This cannibalistic impulse of political correctness run amock is near-sighted and self-defeating.
BTW, I am progressive on some issues, liberal on others, whether you recognize it or not.

Iā€™m with you on that, Metalhead

@MikeInBatonRouge you can't rationalize with greed and corruption, you can fight or except it. the choice is yours

2

This twitter post is painfully over-simplified. Of course progressives get attacked by centrists, only centrists would say "questioned," since "attacked" is its own kind of smear, aimed at making the critic sound monstrously aggressive.

But attacks, critiques, whatever you call them, come from all directions and aimed in all directions, too. Bernie-or-busters" certainly did their share of attacks in 2016, against a certain centrist...(gee, what was her name?), equating her with the likes of Trump. It was preposterous. If you have already mentally "sainted" your preferred candidate, then any criticism from rivals naturally sound grotesquely unfair. ...whether or not they actually are.

And yet you use one of the centrists 2016 attacks, ā€œmentally saintedā€.

@Rudy1962 that expression is not a criticism of Bernie, whom I respect. It IS a criticism of his more dogged supporters, those who would not even support the Democratic ticket though Bernie pled with them to do so, that the general election was too critical to throw it to fascist Trump. I used "mentally sainted," not to say supporters should not have been energized and ardent; they absolutely should. Not that, rather because their faith blinded them to the factual reality that primaries and general elections are very different contests, and that the general election does not stop mattering just because your preferred candidate is no longer in the race.
The notion that Bernie was our sole hope for "salvation" as a nation and that therefore once he was out, the election results no longer mattered as much as idealistic principles. It was bullshit, and now we have Trump taking a bully's torch to the nation and planet, an actual enemy to everything Bernie has championed.

@MikeInBatonRouge so called centralist are nothing more then pawns of the establishment, hence the problem! they can spend unspeakable amounts of money and power to effect primaries, but cry like babies win the majority speaks out against there tyranny

@metalhead222 guess what: Calling someone a pawn of the establishment is a smear tactic just as much as the twitter post was claiming progressives are victims of.

@MikeInBatonRouge spoken just like them nj

@MikeInBatonRouge The whole primary we heard how Bernie was not electable, and even a fair number of Hillary supporters were upset Bernie was calling her out on some of her positions. The leaked DNC emails showed bias towards Hillary. It was what caused DWS to have to step down from her position. Then, when Hillary lost to Trump, of course it wasnā€™t Hillaryā€™s campaign or the DNCā€™s fault; of course it was the fault of Bernie supporters. Sorry if I donā€™t agree. Hey, want to win an election? Run on issues and not fear and extortion tactics, or shaming.

@Rudy1962 It is the easiest thing in the world for political contests to devolve into name calling and cult of personality battles. When that happens, we stop even hearing any constructive points about problem solving and policy differences. We need progressives able to speak to the fears and concerns of people who don't yet recognize that they personally stand to benefit from progressive policies. I am not arguing for or against centrists. Independants, as well as centrist Dems, exist in very large numbers. I want them persuaded to embrace progressive causes. You will not achieve that by demonizing them.

I am arguing for more skillful diplomatic approaches to fighting the good fight. That is what the twitter post displayed a spectacular failure at doing. When that is pointed out, doubling down on the name calling just illustrates the problem.

1

Exactly the same happening in the UK. Not just Jeremy Corbyn, as someone has pointed out, but anyone they think they can get at - Diane Abbott, John McDonnell, all attacked with lies and smears because it looks as if they mihgt get into power soon and spoil things for the 1 percent.

CeliaVL Level 7 Apr 15, 2019

Iā€™m not proud of it, but Iā€™m a typical American as far as not following politics in other countries šŸ™„

0

There it is!

jerry99 Level 8 Apr 15, 2019

Care to elaborate?

@Rudy1962 I'll take an effective centrist like Obama, Clinton, and Carter over an idealistic but totally ineffectual wannabe any day. Mike Gravel, the 88-year-old former Alaskan senator and 2020 presidential candidate with a high school senior as a campaign manager, trying to appeal to the social media youth culture, has said he's only in it to push other candidates further to the left -- the strategy that worked so well for Bernie and Hillary in 2016. So yeah, I'd say that's pretty dumb unless your goal is to get Trump re-elected.

@jerry99 Hillary is the one who lost to Trump. She was a classic centrist, perhaps at times she pretended to be more left in the primaries. This is the same nonsense I kept hearing in 2016 about Bernie, that he canā€™t win. He polled significantly, and consistently, better against Trump than Hillary did. The best way to win is to run the candidate who has the best policies and is not beholden to corporate donors. Also, if you are a centrist, why are you in a progressive and socialist group? Trolling?

@Rudy1962 Keep telling yourself that. Bernie never had a prayer -- Trump and the Repubs would have loved to run against him. There's a reason they kept hammering at Hillary but never said a word against Bernie.
And sorry if I'm not progressive enough for you but I'd rather get a president I can live with than four more years of Trump.

@jerry99 again. Argument used in 2016 and the establishment lost to Donald freaking Trump.

@jerry99 [quotehd.com]

@Marmion Debs never met Donald Trump.
And please don't send me off to look up some link. If you have something to say, say it!

1

True statement it love.IIhan AOC and Bernie they are the future

bobwjr Level 10 Apr 15, 2019
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