Maybe adding appeal to secularism, rather than talking stink on religion, is a more productive strategy for enlightening believers. Just a thought...
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We're supposed to be trying to enlighten believers??
Since when?
For one thing, it's really not possible to add "appeal" to secularism.
For another, they aren't interested in being "enlightened".
Why are you even trying to advocate for this?
It's not anyone's "job" to bring anyone to reason or rational thought.
They have to seek that on their own.
Once they've decided to do that, ONLY then can anyone have a rational
conversation with them.
On the other hand, you are free to do whatever you please.
Don Quixote titled at windmills. No reason you can't too.
KKGator
Level 9
Dec 23, 2019
4
Trying to uphold a responsibility to the human race and life on Earth isn't so bad, but not everyone's cut out for the "job" and that's okay. Others however, can be quite convincing.
"I am a teacher. It's how I define myself. A good teacher isn't someone who gives the answers out to their kids but is understanding of needs and challenges and gives tools to help other people succeed. That's the way I see myself, so whatever it is that I will do eventually after politics, it'll have to do a lot with teaching."
Justin Trudeau
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is truly ready, the teacher disappears."
Lao Tzu
"It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge."
Albert Einstein
@FiliusInfernum Wow.
Pretentiousness. It's not just for breakfast anymore.
@KKGator I'm not trying to be pretentious...
@FiliusInfernum Okay. Perception is definitely subjective.
Good luck in your endeavors.
@KKGator Same to you also. I believe that being a member of any like minded community, online or offline, is pretty good for everyone involved in the long run.
I'm not in it to convert the believers. It is not my responsibility to 'enlighten' anyone. I have neither the patience nor the duty to do so.
If folks want to believe in a deity, that's completely their business. If they keep it to themselves, I let them go about their way.
And I will defend their right to believe what they want, tooth and claw. However, respecting that right to hold the belief should not be confused with respecting the belief itself.
If someone says to me that they "know" that Elvis is on the mothership orbiting Earth 2 (which can't be seen because it is on the other side of the Sun, moving at the same speed as Earth 1) and will one day come to judge us.... I have no hesitation in telling them they are out of their tree.
No sugar-coating, no "appeal" to the improbable. The truth is what the facts are. With the historically unparalleled access we now have to information, believers can do their own research in their own time.
Now, time for a light snack then a nap.
LatentumCattus
Level 6
Dec 23, 2019
4
Enlightenment is a trip every individual has to make for her/himself. I don't think an advertising campaign is going to do it.
Spinliesel
Level 9
Dec 23, 2019
3
lead by example is my motto in this miasma...
Maybe a better idea would be to supply people with more readily available resources. The availability of the internet has allowed people to wonder, research, and answer questions on their own in far greater volumes than ever recorded previously in human history.
@FiliusInfernum ... resourses arre usually contolled by an "axe to grind"..... beware...
I don't think most atheists go around getting in religionists' faces, trying to deconvert them. In fact i have never seen it. That us what they do to us, not the other way around. Yes we vent here but nit to evangelicals -- to each other. Furthermore, are we really trying to deconvert people? Not i. I want separation of church and state. Separation of people from their private foibles is none of my business. So why would i want to add appeal to secularism? Am i trying to get members for a club, perhaps to raise revenue through dues collection? Again, not i, and not the atheists i know. I see no point. Atheism describes my lack of belief in any gods, niy a club for which i am drumming up membership. That would make it sort of like a religion, wouldn't it?
g
genessa
Level 8
Dec 23, 2019
4
Good answer! Annnd there are plenty who come on here to "witness"/proselytize, which IMO, Game On, fools!
@AnneWimsey Lol they sure do! And i don't think their horror at witnessing our insular dirt-dishing (certainly not all or even most of what we do here) is what keeps them from rational thought lol. They are who and what they are, and no amount of honey will persuade them to use their noggins.
g
Well, I don't have an agenda of conversion or deconversion. I simply think that if people globally are supplied with a greater number of tools of discernment, it'll lessen their grip on impractical ideologies. Providing education and access to academic criteria will make a huge difference in humanity's perception of reality. We've already witnessed a historic decline in church attendance and religious devotion after the creation of the internet. I just want to help people. Sure, Darwinism will take over at some point, but when it does at least I tried to improve the knowledge and understanding of the people. It's more of a philosophy than a religion. No dogma. Just reality.
It happens all day, every day right here. ... There are probably only a handful of believers here, but you would think this is a "convert them to atheist" site. ... I don't know why folks continue to be so focused on religion and spirituality here. I have left religion behind and other than to fight it from a political standpoint, I don't give it much thought.
I feel sorry for you, that you have never seen it. I have seen it first hand, up close and personal, because I have the guts to do it, myself. I look at it as a challenge, I get in their face and I challenge them, and they melt away, because they are not use to someone having a spine and countering their every argument. When they walk away bewildered, I know I have met the challenge and then some.
Oh, yea, and to the people who say it is a waste of time . . . if it were, I would not be on this site, I would be sitting in church somewhere.
If you leave the Earth in the charge of these jackasses, they will destroy it, simple as that.
@Archeus_Lore I've never had the experience of a "bewildered" believer. We don't sway them at all, they just decide that we are the devil if we are able to make them question anything. ... Also, I really don't care what they believe until they discriminate against others based on their beliefs.
brings to mind the quote "I wouldn't want to join a club that would want me to be a member" or something like that....
@Archeus_Lore Why do you feel sorry for me? You think that in terms of leaving the world to religious jackasses it is more valuable to get in some poor shmuck's face than to work to keep religion out of government? Seriously? Maybe you get some release from that but it doesn't do the world much good. If your priorities are such that you would rather confuse a theist than stop prayer in schools, and even feel sorry for me for thinking the reverse, then i feel sorry for you.
g
JustAskMe . . . . Leaving the Earth to the charge of religion, well, you see the results of that . . . feel free to not care though.
@genessa . . . In repeat of my post above, on a separate discussion . . . "Religion recruits, then I hear Agnostics and Atheists talk against it, (and I am definitely addressing the concept of shaping A or A into an appealing force, propagandized, as a direct counter to the religious advertising,) but I say that if we do not make A or A appear cool, the whole battle for the minds of people will be lost . . . . if you are old enough to remember the 60's or 70's, you will recall how science programs were abundant on TV, Carl Sagan, it was COOL . . . . if we cannot do that today, we are simply fucking doomed, because the christians and other religions will out-recruit us and clearly, they are now well on the way to destroying the Earth, so if you want to have descendants who still live on Earth after you are gone, you had best re-evaluate how you look at this issue."
@Archeus_Lore You have misread everything. Both of us , @JustAskMe and i, have expressed our concern with people using their religion to discriminate against others, either personally or legally, and you say we don't care and you feel sorry for us. How self-righteous can you get? Your way or the highway, eh? That is awfully christian of you!
g
To the contrary . . . "I don't think most atheists go around getting in religionists' faces, trying to deconvert them. In fact i have never seen it." Recognize this?
@Archeus_Lore I had best not do any such thing. Besides, since you obviously read very selectively (not just with regard to me, either) there is just as little use trying to reason with you than getting pugnacious with a christian, which, by the way, is NOT a good way to show christians that atheists are cool. The way you show someone you are cool is to BE cool, not to try to find good branding. I am not selling anything. I am petitioning for justice. You wanna go confuse someone to make yourself feel superior, that is your business. It's not mine and you can be as condescending as you like but since i do not care what you think of me, oh WELL.
g
@Archeus_Lore Yeah i can quote myself too. So you are pugnacious, unlike most atheists i know. What of it?
g
@genessa I like the way you have analysed me and yet have only just become aware of my presence, assuming you know my motives, and all that . . . . .
You can wimp out all you want in front of Christians, but it will gain no ground whatsoever, and thinking that it even holds ground is laughable.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.” Frederick Douglas
@Archeus_Lore Okay my apologies, there is no use talking to a wall. Goodbye, wall.
g
@Archeus_Lore You are terrible at comprehending what others are saying, or you are choosing to be selective in order to argue. ... Yes, it's true that I don't care UNTIL (and this is the part you chose to ignore) "until they discriminate against others based on their beliefs. " Thank you for trying to get thru to this guy @genessa, but sadly it's not working.
@JustAskMe i have now blocked him, and not because we disagree on an issue, but because in addition to being thick, he even uses a gaslighting technique -- pretending i have analyzed him when in fact he is the one continually making it personal and characterizing me (and you) as not caring, or wimpy, or needing to change my (our) ways. that is a feature of gaslighting and it is turning a philosophical issue into a personal one. i don't respond well to that. in fact, i use the block feature when i encounter that. so if he responds to you, i won't see it (and don't need to know about it lol -- i don't play that game either lol -- and that's just fine with me! at least i know you are there, making sense in the face of his nonsense. i am glad for that!
g
Not a bad idea, but how exactly would you do that? Appeal to a particular form of humanism, maybe? The real appeal of secularism to me involves things like personal freedom, freedom from self-delusion, the appeal of reason and logic, etc. But how would you convince theists they are missing these things in their lives without discussing the restraints of religion?
Heraclitus
Level 8
Dec 23, 2019
2
As stated well here by @Heraclitus, remember many religious types want to curtail freedoms like marriage or abortion or women's rights or fill in mass things here. Granted, one could argue that some non religious authoritarian regimes do the same, but they often follow religions' play books. Think of North Korea - their god is from the Kim family and enshrined in their constitution.
I have no interest in creating converts, but of course there is no need for unwarranted nastiness.
itsmedammit
Level 8
Dec 23, 2019
3
I don't think it matters. They don't wish to be "enlightened" and must come to their own realizations in their own time. What I wish and hope is that atheists and agnostics can work together in a political manner to strip religion and religious people of their discrimination against gays and those seeking birth control,abortions or marriage licenses that has recently been deemed lawful due to their "sincerely held beliefs."
JustAskMe
Level 6
Dec 23, 2019
2
I agree. Individual liberty and choice is something I wish to uphold and defend. That's something I admire heavily about The Satanic Temple. They work very hard to maintain pluralism in a public forum, and I really resonate with groups like that. Satanists aside for now, secular activism is greatly needed in this day and age.
If it did not matter, and, if "they" did not wish to be enlighted, since I was once one of them, yet somehow I show up on this site, I suppose you would attribute it to "They don't wish to be "enlightened" and must come to their own realizations in their own time." but you would be wrong. Had I not got into a discussion with a certain German fellow, maybe I would be in church instead . . . .
When one thinks about and realizes what they are doing to the Earth, and what consequences it could have for our descendants, it becomes blaringly clear it does matter. It does matter, and sitting on a fence is not just holding ground, it is giving up ground.
@Archeus_Lore Again, you are showing very little comprehension of what's being said. I find it tedious, annoying and futile. Good day, sir.
Ditto from the other comment . . .
It takes all kinds. I deconverted by reading the whole Bible. Before that, I had only read what the preacher said was important. I'm sure some people are led to think by hearing dissenting opinion, and others find their own way out. Personally I'm surrounded by religious people at home, at work and everywhere I go here in East Tennessee, so I come here to hear others like me state their opinions and blow off a little steam.
Eazyduzzit
Level 7
Dec 24, 2019
3
Religion recruits, then I hear Agnostics and Atheists talk against it, (and I am definitely addressing the concept of shaping A or A into an appealing force, propagandized, as a direct counter to the religious advertising,) but I say that if we do not make A or A appear cool, the whole battle for the minds of people will be lost . . . . if you are old enough to remember the 60's or 70's, you will recall how science programs were abundant on TV, Carl Sagan, it was COOL . . . . if we cannot do that today, we are simply fucking doomed, because the christians and other religions will out-recruit us and clearly, they are now well on the way to destroying the Earth, so if you want to have descendants who still live on Earth after you are gone, you had best re-evaluate how you look at this issue. It is not difficult to make Agnosticism or Atheism look cool . . . although I myself am more partial to Agnosticism . . .
Archeus_Lore
Level 7
Dec 23, 2019
2
Again, it matters not what folks want to believe UNTIL they infringe on the rights of others. I have already said this 3 times in 3 different ways, but you seem to misunderstand (on purpose? For the sake of argument?) again, again and again. Or you simply can not accept that others disagree.
I'm not the one making a big issue of it . . . seems like you are the one having the problem with disagreements. I don't have any problem with someone disagreeing with me, but they should keep in mind that I have every right to counter everything they say . . . . whether it pleases them or not.
"More Christian than Christians". It has occurred to me this holiday season that many of us are actually 'doing the Christian work' that Christians only seem to talk about. The thing about being an Atheist is while we don't 'believe' in the magical mysticisms that permeate religions, we seem to be the ones actually carrying out the day-today work that is actually required of these religions. I urge everyone who is Atheist to instead make arguments of 'show me' not argue philosophically with religious persons. People can say whatever they like, but if you want me to respect your religion show me you actually do it...there is a homeless person sitting right over there...go help him/her, etc.
We do not need to argue philosophical bullshit, we just keep doing the good that we do and maybe the religious people will start to understand. Lead by example.
Here is my recent post on FaceBook:
I'm an Atheist. People of faith when/if they learn this tend to not like me. But what they don't understand is that this doesn't mean I don't like them. How have we come to the point where simple ideas dictate how we treat each other?
On Shelly's route this year (I work for the USPS as a carrier) when gifts were given specifically to me (I'm holding Shelly's gifts at the office for her) I asked that the gift be instead given to charity. Louisville is Compassion City after all.
As an Atheist I could care less what ideas lead to 'good' being done, rather place importance on the 'good' getting done. Catholic Charities and those in need this holiday season can thank many of the people on this route and many of our routes as our city quietly, consistently does the 'good' that gets done.
Much love Mr and Ms. B!
P.S. If you don't like 'Brown people' or people that speak a different language don't help, but don't try to keep us from helping. You do you.
digifilm4
Level 5
Dec 24, 2019
2
In describing humanist or secular philosophy, we should not be afraid to use religion as a foil, and point out the flaws in religious thinking. Explaining what something IS by showing what it is NOT is an effective rhetorical device. For example, if you want to explain what representative democracy is, you may draw comparisons to fascist dictatorships. Using real examples from history moves the discussion from the realm of pure abstraction into the real world in which we live. This is important, because the choice between secularism and religion, like that between democracy and fascism, has real consequences for peoples' lives.
Flyingsaucesir
Level 8
Dec 24, 2019
2
They want to believe. To me, clapping and singing is not worshiping a god. What it really is is being a part of your chosen community. The honest believer knows this and still wants to tell you all the wonderful things his god is doing. My form of enlightenment to them is bringing out how many biblical things contradict each other. One such example is how mankind was sinful and god wanted to destroy them, so he did so by water and them wanted to re-populate the earth by incest a second time around. Such is the wisdom of god.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Dec 24, 2019
2
I agree that we are not out to “enlighten” people, we can serve to passively help as needed. Part of this is just being welcoming and offer some socializing. So making that pleasant is not bad.
I struggle with the not helping people escape religion. My belief is religion is like a cancer on society. It has a right to exist, but I would like to minimize it
Canndue
Level 8
Dec 23, 2019
0
yes indeed.... you will have trouble with this one.....
blzjz
Level 7
Dec 23, 2019
1
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"
@FiliusInfernum just avoid the scree and the quicksand...
You would have to know how to fight spiritual warfare. This would not specifically have to be a battle of minds but of articulation of knowledge. Christianity does not know Jesus is Lucifer the devil leading the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshipper governmental terrorist European invadors in the establishment of the mark of the beast-666 requiring birth certificate, social security number and photo identification for taxation, capitalism wage slave labor and government control.
Word
Level 8
Dec 25, 2019
1
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