Does teaching "white guilt" also cultivate a "white pride" backlash?
Glenn Loury, a black author and professor of Economics at Brown University, recently wrote an article entitled "Unspeakable Truths about Racial Inequality in America". In it, he lists ways that "cancel culture" is enforcing a world-view that is often not fully backed up with facts and evidence. He posits further that the vilification of white people and their ancestors could result in an argumentatively justifiable "white pride" backlash. Specifically, he writes:
I wonder if the “white-guilt” and “white-apologia” and “white-privilege” view of the world cannot exist except also to give birth to a “white-pride” backlash, even if the latter is seldom expressed overtly—it being politically incorrect to do so.
Confronted by someone who is constantly bludgeoning me about the evils of colonialism, urging me to tear down the statues of “dead white men,” insisting that I apologize for what my white forebears did to the “peoples of color” in years past, demanding that I settle my historical indebtedness via reparations, and so forth—I well might begin to ask myself, were I one of these “white oppressors,” on exactly what foundations does human civilization in the 21st century stand? I might begin to enumerate the great works of philosophy, mathematics, and science that ushered in the “Age of Enlightenment,” that allowed modern medicine to exist, that gave rise to the core of human knowledge about the origins of the species or of the universe. I might begin to tick-off the great artistic achievements of European culture, the architectural innovations, the paintings, the symphonies, etc. And then, were I in a particularly agitated mood, I might even ask these “people of color,” who think that they can simply bully me into a state of guilt-ridden self-loathing, where is “their” civilization?
Now, everything I just said exemplifies “racist” and “white supremacist” rhetoric. I wish to stipulate that I would never actually say something like that myself. I am not here attempting to justify that position. I am simply noticing that, if I were a white person, it might tempt me, and I cannot help but think that it is tempting a great many white people. We can wag our fingers at them all we want but they are a part of the racism-monger’s package. If one is going to go down this route, one has got to expect this. How can we make “whiteness” into a site of unrelenting moral indictment without also occasioning it to become the basis of pride, of identity and, ultimately, of self-affirmation?
In a way similar to "Black Pride", "Asian Pride" and "Latino Pride" where associated people share camaraderie, a sense of identity, and an admiration for their history, is there a factual or moral argument for people of European ancestry to have "White Pride" (or perhaps "Anglo/Euro Pride" )? If not, why not?
Note: I am not trying to advocate a position, only bringing up a topic to discuss. I am aware that the term "White Pride" is often associated with negative aspects of far-right types. Is there a way to separate these negative aspects from the term?
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112 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I would like to know what anyone thinks would warrant "pride" about having white skin. Unlike people of other nations and races, white people have never endured any kind of persecution, oppression, discrimination, or marginalization purely due to the color of our skin. We are the only race that hasn't. We have clearly enjoyed privilege in that respect. To ignore or deny that is racist, in itself. It costs us nothing to acknowledge our privilege and to be mindful of it in all situations. It only requires enough compassion to abstain from cruelty and to wish to stop others from being cruel. This doesn't seem all that complicated to me. But then, I live by one commandment, which I adapted to fit myself: Thou shalt make a real effort to not be an asshole.
Deb57
Level 8
Feb 17, 2021
15
@Thirst2learn Horseshit.
@Thirst2learn bullshit. It's racism to pretend you don't have white privilege that you possess. White privilege is a real thing. Any hardship you have ever endured in your life would have been harder by tenfold if your skin had not been white. And also any hardship you have ever endured in your life wasn't because your skin wasn't white enough. The world is a very different place for people of color. Take a peek outside of that bubble you're in. This is not rocket science.
@Thirst2learn it sounds like you're trying to rationalize your own racism here. I can't tell if you're deliberately misunderstanding what privilege is or if you just don't like the idea of bothering to acknowledge it. If you're white, you have white privilege. It's there whether you have the balls to own it or not.
@Thirst2learn You are really going out of your way to miss the point.
@Thirst2learn ah I see our racist qtard is back
That commandment says it all and is all we can ask of ourselves.
"white people have never endured any kind of persecution, oppression, discrimination, or marginalization purely due to the color of our skin"
Which planet were you born on?
@FrayedBear feel free to prove me wrong.
@Deb57 are you a barrister? If so you can pro bono one of the many cases pending by me.
@FrayedBear are you claiming you're being sued or prosecuted for being white?
@Deb57 more likely for being male, white & alien.
@FrayedBear male and white is the very top of the food chain. Surely you might understand my skepticism in being told that you're being picked on for that.
@Deb57 I no longer give a razoo for your scepticism madam.
Give an example of "White Privilege". You Can't. You wiil try to by giving an example of prejudicial behavior, but never an example of a white only inherent advantage.
@Alienbeing, trying to explain white privilege to a racist is an exercise in futility. I'm not going to bother. You don't want to see it, therefore you will never see it. You may as well be a theist with a mind that narrow. You have expressed numerous assumptions about me, none of which were accurate. You have been insulting and condescending, which was quite unsurprising. I have wasted enough of my time on you, therefore I invite you to have the last word, which you predictably have a burning need to do. Please do not expect any further response from me. I have moved on to more interesting things.
@Deb57 PLEASE, please cite one thing I ever said that was racist. You can't, so go ahead and retreat into your safe place.
By the way you never did cite any specific White Privilege. We know why.... you can't.
@Alienbeing the fact you ask for an example of white privilege suggests you have no understanding of history. Here's an example. Maybe you heard of slavery? Whites made non whites slaves. Whites felt entitled to do that. Even poor whites were held in a higher regard than non whites. I hope this helps you understand. Another example made earlier of a person showing a military ID to get out of a traffic ticket is an example of using privilege.
@ecowellness The fact that you cannot produce a straight line argument proves you have nothing. I ask for an example of me making a racist remark. That was in response to being labeled as racist. I did NOT even imply, no less state that such as thing as "white privilege" exists.
As far as history, I KNOW I know more about history than you do. It was a minor in college and has continued to be a hobby of mine. I read history virtually every day.
Your emotions stop you from recognizing reality.
@Alienbeing, you proclaim yourself as knowing more than me, yet you have no clue who I am or what I know. Blindly making emotionally based claims hurts your credibility. Another thing that does not help is when asked for an example, you reacted emotionally and never posted one. Any intelligent person could come up with an example if what they said was true. I have no doubt what you said has no basis of truth. You can't support your claim. You think mentioning minoring in history and it is a hobby is necessary when you have not said anything of substance? It appears you threw those claims in to bolster your weak argument. You sound very emotional. It appears I hurt your feelings asking for an example, which you did not provide. Asking you for one pissed you off and caused you to realize your rants can't be backed up by anything. Emotions stop me from recognizing reality? It doesn't appear anything you mentioned reflects reality. Now that you have made yourself a knowitall and judge, it makes my asking you for an example more legitimate. The fact you won't post an example and reacted in a knee jerk fashion suggests you acted emotionally. You seem hell bent on suggesting white privilege doesn't exist. Let me guess, you are white. A lot of angry whites talk like you. Whites who deny white privilege make themselves suspect. There are many examples of white privilege. Anyone who graduated from high school could cite plenty. You have exposed yourself. If you are a racist, you will continue playing your emotional baseless games. If you are not, then you will provide an example.
@Alienbeing you said "Give an example of "White Privilege". You can't" That statement is dishonest. Racists are often liars who feel entitled to project racism as non existent. Catching racists in lies is not hard. For your education, I provide more examples that you claim do not exist. h
[yesmagazine.org]
@Alienbeing for your education, [also-chicago.org]
@Alienbeing for your education, [harpersbazaar.com]
@Alienbeing for your education,
[en.wikipedia.org]
@ecowellness Your first11/21 post shows you are FAR too emotional, and therefore confirms my original reply.
@ecowellness Your second 11/21 reply actually says nothing, not even what "lie" you are referencing.
@ecowellness Your other replies do nothing except make accusations that are either meaningless or without back up.
I'll help you.... does racism exist? Yes. Is the term "White Privilege" overused? Yes. Are you showing insight into the issue? Absolutly not.
@Alienbeing, meaningless accusations? I'll give you another chance to prove you didn't say that as a knee jerk reaction. Give an example of meaningless accusation. Here is an example of a meaningless accusation, claiming white privilege does not exist. At this point you are all knowitall claims and no substance. You defend racist thinking. Now you claim white privilege is overused. Did you pull that out of your ass or do you have proof? You hold your opinions very high, yet never post facts. Liars never post facts. Racists are narcissistic and have no problem lying to give strength to their factless claims. What qualifies you to make bogus claims? You have been exposed as dishonest and sound like a racist. You continue to pull crap out of your ass to distract from the fact you made a false claim. Why won't you admit your claim white privilege does not exist was wrong? Until you admit you were wrong, your credibility is in the toilet. All distractions you post do not make your dishonesty and apparent racism go away. It's interesting how you now change the narrative to white privilege is overused. That is far from your original claim. Are you confused, dishonest or are you trying to water down your original claim and hope no one remembers?
@Alienbeing, I already posted proof you lied. Here are your lying words. "Give an example of "White Privilege". You can't" Unless you are at grade school level understanding of the English language, to say "you can't" reeks of dishonesty and or a lack of intelligence. There are thousands of examples. Here is one. "Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Having A Positive Relationship With The Police, Generally". I posted several links and of course being a racist defender you refuse to read them. Your emotions will not allow you to accept truths that upset you. You can non longer argue you are not a liar as it is proven. What supports you are a liar is when it was pointed out, you had the option of changing what you said or admitting it was wrong. How did you respond? Act ignorant and ask me to repeat your lie like it was never said. You can't win as a liar or a racist defender either.
@Alienbeing, another example. Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Being Favored By School Authorities
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Attending Segregated Schools Of Affluence.
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Finding Children’s Books That Overwhelmingly Represent My Race
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Soaking In Media Blatantly Biased Toward My Race
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Escaping Violent Stereotypes Associated With My Race
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Playing The Colorblind Card, Wiping The Slate Clean Of Centuries Of Racism
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Being Insulated From The Daily Toll Of Racism
@Alienbeing Being white, I Have The Privilege Of Living Ignorant Of The Dire State Of Racism Today
@ecowellness All your moronic posts show one thing. You don't know the diference between racism and what you call "White Privilege".
Last, since all I have expressed in these exchanges with you was opinion, it would be impossible for you to prove a lie. NO opinion can be a lie.
You are obviously a dimwit.
@Alienbeing clearly you can't tell when a post is moronic or not. Everything @ecowellness stated was truth. Your opinions show you to be manipulative and lacking in compassion or empathy. When people give you valid reasons for things, you respond with personal attacks. What a dick!
@Alienbeing, again you act like a knowitall claiming I can't tell the difference. You have a problem understanding the difference between opinion and what you claim can't be proven. I asked for examples, where are they? Liars never show examples. That proves you have no true substance for your racist, dishonest attitude. Many liars lie because they can't stand reality and when challenged liars argue, change the subject, rant and go after the challenger. You exposed yourself as dishonest and repeat racist talking points. You have a poor understanding of how to use english. You made a claim saying you can't give an example of white privilege. That claim was proven false numerous times and you refuse to admit you were wrong. You have a problem with truth and decency. Now you claim your lie is an opinion. Several things stand out about you; you are dishonest and aggressively defend racism and lack basic communication skills. If it walks, talks and looks like a duck..... perhaps you can connect the dots. You are so into your racist beliefs that it does not matter that you lie or make no sense. Why do you defend racism? Why do you lie? Why can't you admit numerous examples of white privilege were posted? Let me guess, to defend racism.
@ecowellness You have the mistaken notion that I care what you think or have to say. Your long distance analysis of anything I said is as stupid as you seem to be. The fact is I don't care what you have to say.
To prove I don't care, I am not responding to anything you belched out, rather I leave you to your own stupidity.
@Deb57 Do yourself a favor and get lost, nothing you said is correct.
@Alienbeing, get lost? I'm not surprised at your grade school level comment. Nothing said is correct? That adds more proof you are a liar. What makes you the knowitall on what is correct since you refuse to back up your BS with anything? If you have something legitimate to say, post some facts with it. But liars never post facts. Got any proof? Asking you for facts insults you. And being a narcissistic liar, you can't resist going after the person who exposed you. You had the chance to admit you were wrong, but instead chose to be a liar. You continue digging your hole. Why are racists so cowardly and dishonest?
@Alienbeing, nothing says phony like having a fake picture. You claim you are a man. You give men a bad rap. I don't recall you admitted you were white? What's the matter, not so proud of your skin color? I notice you are in a state famous for racists. Many racists are like you, loud mouthed, proud and feel entitled to lie until they have to take their white hoods off. Real men don't lie like grade school, losers. You are a phony. You are too cowardly to post a real picture. I suspect you are already on many people's shit list for being a liar and racist and too chicken to post a picture. Losers like you are easy to spot. Internet racists post no picture like you.
@ecowellness The phrase "get lost" has no academic acheivement connected to it. I told you to get lost because your reply was not worth reply. It still is not worth reply, so get lost.
@ecowellness Your reply of11/23 is the strangest reply I ever saw. Why do you want my picture? More important why do you think posting a "true" picture is important?
I challenge you to cite anything I said that was racist. Go ahead look for something in ANY post I ever made to anyone.
Last, your attampt at long distance analysis is wrong on all levels, however I won't argue the point with you because you are't worth the typing effort.
@Alienbeing you seem to lack a basic grasp of the english language. Where did I ask for your picture? Once again you blindly make shit up. If you read what I said and comprehend, you will realize you are wrong again. I mentioned the picture as another sign you are a phony. You are incapable of grasping what that means.
@Alienbeing speaking of not being worthy, I suppose you being a liar, racist and phony is much more palatable for you than my exposing you for what you are.
@Alienbeing, get lost? A liar feels a need to argue after they are caught. Racists are the same. Your grade school level emotional intelligence is showing again. Racists feel justified to lie as they feel being white is supreme and they are above all others in every way. And you are a coward as not only do you not admit to being a liar, you won't admit to being a racist. No matter how you avoid admitting what you are and make nonsensical comments, it still comes down to you are a racist and liar.
@Alienbeing, after your baseless comments you laughingly comment I am not worth your comments. You contradicted yourself. The word worthy is a big one for racists. They alone feel worthy. You can't resist arguing after being exposed. You keep proving me correct.
@ecowellness I see you still can't group your thoughts and therefore need several posts to cover what any normal person would cover in a sentence or two.
"Where did I ask for your picture?" Well... on 11/23 you typed "You are too cowardly to post a real picture." Perhaps you don't realize that by typing that you are prompting me to post a "real" picture. Then you drone on about lies and me being wrong" However you did NOT cite any lie,(even after being challenged to cite a lie) nor cite anything I said that was racist.
You are obviously unable to back up you mumbles (they really don't even qualify as assertions), and seem to try to make up for that by word quantity.
You failed to cite a lie or racist statement because there are NONE. Now if I were you I would get lost.
By the way, did you retire at pay grade E-1?
@Alienbeing bossy AND narcissistic isn't a good look. Since you're the one commenting on a thread that originated with MY comment, the obligation to "get lost" falls upon you.
@Deb57 The obligagtion falls on whoever I say it falls on.
@Alienbeing I'm not sure what an "obligagtion" is, but if you think you're in charge, that's proof of how deeply rooted your delusion is.
@Deb57 You must be the only person in the world with that opinion.
@Alienbeing obviously, I'm not.
@Deb57 Obviously you are
There are nuances here. I, for example, have a great deal of pride that my Polish and Slovakian ancestors made it to America during a time of world war, pogroms, and another pandemic, mining coal that helped build the national infrastructure and support the American steel industry, railroad industry, and 2 word war efforts. I am proud of the role patriots like Kosciusko and Casimir Pulaski played in the revolutionary war, the engagement of the Polish underground against the nazis, including the Warsaw uprising, the repudiation of soviet control, and the ability to maintain a national identity for the 200 some years Poland did not exist as a separate country. We did not have many people of color in Poland or Slovakia. The closest thing to slavery was the decrepit feudal system, and poles were the "slaves".
However, I think that adherents of white supremacy based on tenets of innate genetic superiority, including the implicit inferiority of other races, nationalities or religions, are all absurdly wrong.
You can have pride in your heritage without being an unreconstructed bigoted asshole. Maybe that's not the space in which this discussion is occurring, but it's a valid point. Of the 6 million people slaughtered by the nazis in the holocaust, 2 million were polish. That's whythere were so many concentration camps in Poland. We survived. Hell yeah, I'm proud. The yahoos now carrying rebel flags and terrorizing Asians, Latinos, jews and blacks can all blow me. They are our nazis. I am as white as they are, and we are NOTHING alike, there IS NO equivalence.
zeuser
Level 9
Feb 17, 2021
13
11 million died in the Holocaust.
@Krish55 I don't know where you get your stats from? They seem grossly exaggerated -
@FrayedBear State your specific claim yourself before you give the supporting link.
@Krish55 you can read the link yourself.
@FrayedBear Why bother when you can't even bother to state the point you want to draw from it?
@Krish55 your statement of 11million is incorrect.
I do not feel guilt over something that I did not do. I don't know with any certainty that my ancestors owned slaves and if they did I don't feel anything particular one way or the other. I absolutely agree that they did something that was morally wrong but their dead now.
Every human being living in an industrialized nation benefited from the pain, suffering, slavery, and deaths of those who came before. It seems civilizations are built on such things.
I also don't feel any particular pride over the accomplishments of my ancestors or "white people" that came before me. Those were their accomplishments, not mine. If someone did something commendable or made some revolutionary discovery or invention then that's great and they should be applauded and commemorated equally regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.
Charles1971
Level 7
Feb 17, 2021
12
Well stated
"Pride" and "heritage" are two words I don't have much use for.
I see them as buzzwords that often get used to justify bad behavior.
I'm not going to play along.
I'll call out racism and xenophobia when I see them.
KKGator
Level 9
Feb 17, 2021
8
My ancestors, on both sides of my family, were poor Polish peasants who immigrated to the US in the 20th Century. Being Slavic, one can presume my ancient heritage was more in the slave ("Slavic" means slave) category than in the overlord category. Being descendant of Polish nationality specifically, my ethnic history reflects more recent domination by German, Russian, and Austrian foreign powers.
I don't feel any white guilt. I do acknowledge that my grandparents, parents, and I have had an easier route to success in America than the average black person, because of racism that persists to this day.
Personally, I identify with Polish and American heritage rather than "white" or European heritage. Hell, one of my relatives fought in the Polish army when the Nazis invaded, fought in the Polish Underground while the country was occupied, and survived to eventually immigrate to America, marry, and start a family. Many other relatives fought in the US armed forces in WWII. ... As did many black Americans.
Why burn bridges with your fellow countrymen and women? Heal the racial divides. United we're stronger.
nicestuff
Level 7
Feb 17, 2021
7
My ancestors who first came to America undoubtedly had it rough, since back then they were discriminated too for jobs- the old signs used to say back then "No Irish Need Apply", but at least they had rights that blacks and Native Americans did not have in the society. By the time the first members of my family came to Iowa after the Civil War, they were able to get land and be farmers, because they were white, so they had it easier than the ones who first arrived in America in New York. So they had reason to be proud of overcoming their limited obstacles, but they also, as an ethnic group, benefitted from the dominant white society deciding after their group had been in America a while to include them fully into white society, and they reciprocated by adopting the racism of seeing blacks and other minority groups as inferior to them and carrying out the dominant prejudices, esp. against blacks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't certain groups of what we now refer to as "white" in previous times, not really regarded as such? I think the tent has expanded over the years to be more accepting of people who weren't liked and were previously only tolerated.
I don't want anyone to feel guilty. I want people to respect what they cannot replace: 1st: ALL LIVES, and 2nd: ALL CREATIVE TALENTS and POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS TO OUR WORLD.
LaDizdeOdd
Level 6
Apr 11, 2021
7
I read your bio. We share some of the same thoughts. The cop that murdered George Floyd ws 100% guilty of murder- but then I have the concept that, "All lives matter." And employment: "only the most qualified." I worked, part-time, at a place where only nepotism and cronyism counted; that too should be outlawed. I like to be around thinking people---- and many caucasions definitly don't think- about anything. There is a phrase that so-called educated people let drop out of their mouth. First, what would a building with no colour look like? The only answer, I can think of, is that it would be invisible. I am sort of a white-pinky, (wrinkled too) grey colour! There are "people of colour", what other choice is there? What do people with no colour look like? I hope we can be friends.
My mistake: I can see that this site enables a person to put things in paragraphs.
"White people having or expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors..." are silly and pathetic. Same for Black people expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors. Same for any other ethnic group doing so.
Pride is appropriate for ONE'S OWN accomplishments or, to some extent, the accomplishments of one's children, because you "raised 'em right" or whatever. Neither pride nor shame should extend beyond what one is actually responsible for.
AmyTheBruce
Level 7
Feb 17, 2021
6
Deliberate race baiting post
LenHazell53
Level 9
June 4, 2021
6
Only to a closed mind.
Len, Well spotted!!!
@Alienbeing open your mind too far and all it contains will drop out.
@LenHazell53 Is that what happened to you?
It is misplaced pride to feel you have input into someone else's accomplishments.
MsDemeanour
Level 8
Apr 24, 2021
6
Being prideful about something you had no control over [like what "race" you are (which isn't even a real thing) or what people of your "race" did in the past] is about the dumbest thing you can do. That's like bragging about your eyes being blue, or more aptly, the color of your great-great-grandfather's eyes. Maybe people should accomplish something themselves?
ChestRockfield
Level 8
Feb 18, 2021
6
yup. Potentially "inspired" makes more sense than "proud." We can easily apply the same observation to "patriotism." Why don't we look for inspiration and learning from consequences of history, rather than treating national or racial identity like a fucking zero-sum contest for bragging rights?
@MikeInBatonRouge Even then, why should inspiration only come from, or mean more if, it comes from someone of your same [nationality/"race"/gender/age group/sexual orientation/etc.]?
The question assumes that "white guilt" is indeed being taught. It thus makes an assumption that has not been demonstrated to be accurate. Teaching how slavery and imperialism created White Privilege is not teaching "white guilt." The fact that some may feel resentfully guilty when confronted with their privilege indicates a desire to continue such privilege at the expense of others.
Krish55
Level 8
Feb 17, 2021
6
Could be any one or more of these reasons. Really depends on the person and context.
Social Teacher says: here are two lines, how can you make line “A” shorter than line “B” ?
A—————
B—————
Most students guess various ways to cut or fold line “A”. Teacher kept shaking his head looking for a different answer. Finally one student says “make line “B” longer! Correct says the teacher.
Racism is like the lines. It is ok to lengthen yours, but never ok to shorten the others....
Canndue
Level 8
Feb 17, 2021
6
We all belong to the Human Race. It is important that we strive for equality, justice, and equal pay levels for people of all colors and sexual orientation.
Panthepiper
Level 3
Dec 7, 2021
5
Human is not a race, it is a species.
In my opinion...there is only one division point for human beings. You are either 1) Benevolent 2) Malevolent. Any attempt to divide humanity by race/ethnic grouping, religion, class, age, skin color, sex, etc. is a divide and conquer strategy and is meant to distract you. People of all races want to be treated equally but how are you going to achieve that while you use the term racist rather than Malevolent human being. Want an even better example? COPS! There are Benevolent officers who respect human life and speak with clarity defusing situations while there are Malevolent officers who seek every opportunity to escalate a situation in order to justify the use of excessive force. There are White/Black/Oriental/Indian/Etc. officers...still when they wear a uniform...they behave in one of 2 ways...their skin color/race does not determine how they handle a situation...it's based on the type of human being they are! Now if only benevolent humans of all races would start focusing on the malevolent humans...we could clean up this mess! 
warlord13
Level 6
July 7, 2021
5
Well put
True that
Agreed
I concur
I'd disagree on religion as it's always a case of we want to convert or control you.
You are correct....there are many religious folks who have an issue with belief as they wish without pushing/forcing their belief's on others. Although those who cannot accept a friendly "I'm not interested" or "agree to disagree" fall into the category of malevolent as they do not respect every persons right to choose their own path.
It's insulting how the question is phrased as if the issue is that white people cannot openly brag about their accomplishments, as if every US & European History class in America isn't exactly that and forced down the throats of every American child yearly.
I was taught in school that the Greeks "invented" philosophy as if the China and Egypt civilizations and the nations of North and South America could have existed without some kind of philosophical understanding of the universe.
I was taught about Hippocrates the Greek, the "Father of Medicine" but no one said anything about the original Egyptian Father of Medicine, Imhotep of Kemet.
I was taught that Columbus "discovered" America and facilitated making the land "great" instead of "invading" America and attempting to enslave the locals for the profit of European nations.
I was taught that Africans were the cause of the slave trade in America because black nations sold slaves, but they totally ignored explaining the voracious market that America had for slaves.
I was taught that white people "freed" blacks from slavery as if blacks sat around waiting for it to happen instead of fighting their oppressors for generations.
I was not taught that "tips" started as a way of paying black servants in the south forcing "freed" people to act servile to get paid for their labor instead of expecting an honest wage for their labor.
I was not taught about the horrific details of slavery or Jim Crow or the formation of the KKK and how that affected the daily lives of non-white Americans.
I was not taught about sundown towns were black people were not welcome when the sun goes down on fear of death.
I was not taught about the thousands of lynchings used to terrorize black people for generations.
I was not taught that the first heart surgery couldn't have been done without a black man's assistance and how white people openly ignored his contributions for their own aggrandizement.
Nobody cares about white people expounding on the accomplishments of white people. The problem is that when many do it it's at the exclusion of everyone else and with a perspective that gives the impression of superiority when it is not merited.
redbai
Level 8
Mar 21, 2021
5
Excellent answer to a whiny post.
Look lets make a compromise:
white pride is only ok IF it is about something or someone that didnt involve destroying something or hurting someone AND ONLY INVOLVED WHITE PEOPLE. I woukd go further and say only be prideful of people from your own home country and or state. If you have German and French ancestry: pick one. Otherwise your not playing the pride game correctly and you'll seem more stupid that you already are okay?
For example: you can't have pride in landing on the moon, because we all know there were people of color and other nationalities working in NASA, and that some of the science involved were based on works of non-white non-American people. Einstein for example. Dont you dare say he was American!
So when people say they take pride in being an American (which they also mean white) for being the first to land on the moon...I really can't agree. Instead i try to focus on individuals rather than race. Let's get to where the merit really lies, eh. It sure aint race.
What about someone? Well you can't take pride in James Clark Maxwell: the man is a bloody Scot not of pure Anglo Saxon blood.
No german pride either, German whites: sorry your ancestors participated in genocide. You're out permenently. Nothing you race ever accomplished or will accomplish will rise above that. The German race will always be tainted. The bittersweet irony is that the best German you will ever produce happens to be Jewish. Sorry I don't blame Hitler for the Holocaust. I blame ze German race. No pride for you. Ever.
American white/Southern pride?: HaHaHa: never. Slavery. Genocide of the natives. Warmongering. Dropping nukes on children 70 odd years ago. Drone attacks on children today. How can you still have pride? I dont. I CANT!
So what can you take pride in as white?: Isaac Netwon. He self-admitted that his accomplishments only were possible because he "stood on the shoulders of giants" and his work was truly a boon to humanity, and he did it all on his own. The only white guy you should be proud of. But he may not have been of pure Anglo-Saxon blood, and also the brits did horrible things...ok yeah brits no pride for you.
Whose left? The French? Gtfo. We know what your race has done!
Italians? Youre uh...not white. Sorry. Ya kinda swarthy.
Spain? Really? Are we forgetting South America? You're out!
Scandinavian? You mean those guys who looted and plundered as vikings and the later invented dynamite!? Fuck off. No pride for you.
Whose left Russia and handful of eastern european countries? Hold any pogroms in the last 2000 years? You did? No pride for you?.
Oh yeah Australia: NO. What you did to the Aborigines. And to refugees today.
Indian, the true Aryan race? Fuck off! Caste system automatically disqualifies you. No pride for you.
Japan, the only people who are literally more white tgan white people. Do I need to remind you of starting a world war and what you did to the Koreans?
Chinese? Yeah....no pride for you. White or not. You know what you did.
You know what this isnt working out
How about this: maybe racial or national pride is fucking impossible to have without blessing the bad with the good. So let's not have it.
MakeItGood
Level 7
Feb 18, 2021
5
Referencing black conservatives only magnifies your racism.
LovinLarge
Level 8
Feb 18, 2021
5
I agree with the sentiment expressed in the original post. In our society right now it seems there is a pressure to align yourself with one side or the other on this topic. On the university campus or in Hollywood acknowledging your white privilege is a daily routine. Reading the UNC student newspaper, I see white racial guilt sprinkled into articles so much That it begins to lose affect as persuasion and becomes dogma.
On the other side of the coin this gives ammunition to racists. they can point to the excessive and silly examples among the “libtards” as a justification for their own righteousness. So I agree with the premise above.
In my state the current fuss involves new social studies standards for K 12 students placing a greater emphasis on racism discrimination social movements and competing historical narratives.
It’s probably good to expand what kids are taught in school. And it is probably true that most of the history books I learned on growing up glazed over how tough the racial struggle in this country has been for Black people.
When I assess the character of a man, (or a woman or a non-binary individual)... I like to assess them based on their peers and their time in history. Right now there’s So many people claiming to be social justice warriors that it’s hard to give any one of them that much credit. The people who stand out from the crowd right now are those willing to reach across and speak directly and with care to those they disagree with.
MorganR
Level 5
Feb 17, 2021
3
Hmm. I disagree with racists and supremacists, and I am strongly disinclined to speak directly and with care to them. as I have in the past always had my values of care and compassion for "the common person" scorned by such individuals. I now consign them to the dustbin of wasters and oxygen thieves.
The funny thing about racism is it is a spectrum. Sometimes I wonder if anybody is completely free of it
@MorganR - I agree with youf idea of racism being on a spectrum. I wonder if it is as important to be completely free of racism as to be willing to confront and deal with it when we find ourselves being guilty of it.
With all people, we are likely to have all sorts of preconceptions and prejudices. How are these biases different except when they are based on race, gender, or some other identifiable minority?
My thought is that prejudices develop naturally enough. They can be taught as well as develop from experience. The most effectively instilled bias is probably a combination of teaching and experience with an good dose of confirmation bias.
I don't really have a vote on this. I just know that many, but not all, white people get defensive and lash out when they feel their white identity and white privilege are confronted and threatened with it being taken away from them, at least as they see it. This results in backlash and they act it out by voting for Repubs and other reactionary pols. They also act it out by bashing and seeking power and control over racial and ethnic minorities. I like to think I am fairly non-racist and teachings about white guilt and white privilege don't threaten me personally, so I don't react negatively to it. I take it in, weigh it against my experience, logic, and use my intellect to apply it to how I live and treat others. Because I would like to live in a pluralistic, peaceful society if possible, and because I know that non-whites are not my real enemy is this country. As a socialist, I know my real enemy is the ruling class. Most whites have not figured that out yet, sadly, and neither have a lot of minority race Americans.
TomMcGiverin
Level 8
Feb 17, 2021
3
I think you should have some sense of pride no matter where your ancestors came from. The past is gone and cannot be changed. Some of our ancestors were good people, some were not. All people are a product of their upbringing and the period of history in which they lived. Right or wrong now, it might have seemed very different then. We have to learn from the past and try to be better.
Sidneyanne
Level 2
Nov 4, 2022
3
Just as I am proud of he accomplishments of my ancestors, I am ashamed of their transgressions, including being slave-owners.
wordywalt
Level 9
Nov 24, 2021
3
Like Granddad used to say, "There's good and bad in all sorts."
Also, pretty much none of us a pure-bred anything. We are all "mutts". I am English, Scottish, Irish, French, German, Danish, Italian, Basque, Slovak, Turkic, Yakut, Haudenosaunee. And my genetic analysis showed I am not even fully human: 1.5% Neanderthal, 2.8% Denisovan, and only 95.7% Sapien.
@Reignmond Which service did you use?
@dalefvictor NatGeo 2.0 and 23andMe I am thinking about trying a third more complete service.
I feel I am "something else" because there is no option that adequately describes me. I am white . I have researched my genealogy to a great extent. I discovered a few ancestors who came to No. America on the Mayflower. I have discovered 12 ancestors who participated in the Revolution. I am a card carrying member of the DAR. I have discovered some ancestors that I respect, admire and would probably have adored if I had known them. One of my favorites, my gr-gr grandfather, fought for the Union in the Civil War. (See photo of Lt. Walter Eaton Mellish below) He wrote an article in a local newspaper praising the 54th Massachusetts Infantry: The all black regiment depicted in the movie "Glory". I have also found ancestors that persecuted Native American, women, Quakers and others. I have no delusions that all my ancestors were wonderful people: I know for a fact that they were not. I understand that the color of my skin has given me some privileges (money was not one of them which is what I get for being the daughter of the daughter of the daughter instead of the first born son.) I feel that if there were a choice in the poll for me it would be "I'm proud of the accomplishments of some of my ancestors but I have not overlooked the misdeeds of others."
MyTVC15
Level 7
Sep 5, 2021
3