Does teaching "white guilt" also cultivate a "white pride" backlash?
Glenn Loury, a black author and professor of Economics at Brown University, recently wrote an article entitled "Unspeakable Truths about Racial Inequality in America". In it, he lists ways that "cancel culture" is enforcing a world-view that is often not fully backed up with facts and evidence. He posits further that the vilification of white people and their ancestors could result in an argumentatively justifiable "white pride" backlash. Specifically, he writes:
I wonder if the “white-guilt” and “white-apologia” and “white-privilege” view of the world cannot exist except also to give birth to a “white-pride” backlash, even if the latter is seldom expressed overtly—it being politically incorrect to do so.
Confronted by someone who is constantly bludgeoning me about the evils of colonialism, urging me to tear down the statues of “dead white men,” insisting that I apologize for what my white forebears did to the “peoples of color” in years past, demanding that I settle my historical indebtedness via reparations, and so forth—I well might begin to ask myself, were I one of these “white oppressors,” on exactly what foundations does human civilization in the 21st century stand? I might begin to enumerate the great works of philosophy, mathematics, and science that ushered in the “Age of Enlightenment,” that allowed modern medicine to exist, that gave rise to the core of human knowledge about the origins of the species or of the universe. I might begin to tick-off the great artistic achievements of European culture, the architectural innovations, the paintings, the symphonies, etc. And then, were I in a particularly agitated mood, I might even ask these “people of color,” who think that they can simply bully me into a state of guilt-ridden self-loathing, where is “their” civilization?
Now, everything I just said exemplifies “racist” and “white supremacist” rhetoric. I wish to stipulate that I would never actually say something like that myself. I am not here attempting to justify that position. I am simply noticing that, if I were a white person, it might tempt me, and I cannot help but think that it is tempting a great many white people. We can wag our fingers at them all we want but they are a part of the racism-monger’s package. If one is going to go down this route, one has got to expect this. How can we make “whiteness” into a site of unrelenting moral indictment without also occasioning it to become the basis of pride, of identity and, ultimately, of self-affirmation?
In a way similar to "Black Pride", "Asian Pride" and "Latino Pride" where associated people share camaraderie, a sense of identity, and an admiration for their history, is there a factual or moral argument for people of European ancestry to have "White Pride" (or perhaps "Anglo/Euro Pride" )? If not, why not?
Note: I am not trying to advocate a position, only bringing up a topic to discuss. I am aware that the term "White Pride" is often associated with negative aspects of far-right types. Is there a way to separate these negative aspects from the term?
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112 comments (101 - 112)
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Your poll question is I guess a-bit strange to me. From the very beginning you are referring to "white people". Is that certain specific group or group name or like globally on all white and/or caucasian people? If you are referring to the last, I'd say it is a bummer-slummer smelling indeed like a Segregation times if you kno what I mean..
MdrnProfet
Level 1
Jan 26, 2024
0
what about an 'it's heritage not hate'. an assumption of innocence. it depends.
HankHunter13
Level 7
Aug 20, 2023
0
Hope I won't regret writing this.
I never really thought about being proud of one's skin tone, but it does make sense for people with darker tones. Pride in the form of resistance to the times they're treated worse only because of their skin. Staying strong mentally and dealing with the hardships faced.
Having white skin does have its benefits according to what I've heard, yet pride might still make sense, as resistance to being perceived a racist more likely.
For example:
Someone says: "There were also white slaves."
Reply: "No! Are you justifying slavery?"
or around those lines.
People are wary when it comes to a white person talking about these matters, and that is good. Only issue are the misunderstandings, or making the white debate person feel anxious about expressing a different opinion,
a lot like walking on eggshells.
Quick assumptions are made.
Bias towards both darker and lighter skin exist. It sounds to me like both sides are mentally prepared for the other's actions, waiting cautiously and affirming themselves with pride as to not feel bad for being who they are.
Maybe it's indeed a reaction to being shamed for being white or at times depicted as a descendant of a slave-owner or imperialist.
theodore33
Level 2
Mar 10, 2023
0
The traditional saying is that "pride comes before a fall".
I simply say "I'm not ashamed" and when it comes to place, country, year of birth & parentage you had no say in it. Therefore to take pride from that occurrence is nonsensical.
Similarly the colour of your skin was not determined by you.
Please, do elaborate on that saying.
("pride comes before a fall" )
Maybe people use the word pride
in the terms of "I'm proud of my skin, because I'm honoured to be put in the same group as those other people associated with it"
like being proud of them in end effect.
Nonetheless, yes, it does sound like taking other people's achievements to boost one's own self-esteem. Like, "person X and Y is one of my people, guess what achievements and traits you are to associate with me"
Else, what do you think of the idea on self-affirming oneself with feelings of pride in order to boost one's self-esteem?
@theodore33 if you didn't do it you are deluding yourself if you think that the mantle of other's worthy achievement is yours to subsume to boost your feeling of self worth.
There are many problems in this world that are caused by people thinking that they have a right & genuine benefit from such assumptions - Donald Trump & the delusion of MAGA immediately springs to mind.
@FrayedBear
Well explained, thank you for that!
Thus we both agree on this point.
Thus being proud of the people in association is alright, whereas boosting one's ego with pride for achievements never achieved is rather unjust.
Now either way, I won't judge someone who says they're proud to be this and that (something they didn't choose to be), because they might mean they're not ashamed.
As one of the definitions for proud is:
having or showing respect for yourself:
example:
"He might be poor but he's also proud, and he won't be pushed around by anyone."
found it here:
[dictionary.cambridge.org]
Language is fun,
you can use words that can mean very different
things. A wise man once said "The more I think
about language, the more it amazes me that people
ever understand each other at all.”
@theodore33 I like your symmetry of word layout. Very neat..
Thanks for the compliment.
Just as our eye-brain makes assumptions about what we see our ear-brain makes assumptions according to what we want to hear.
Frequently people who have been conditioned or indoctrinated cannot hear or read what is presented to them because of it.
@FrayedBear
You're welcome!
Thank you for your compliment!
My texts tend to be very long, so I have to do it for the sake of a comfortable reading experience. XD
Very true indeed!
Is it perhaps them refusing to see it in a different light? One I have discussed something with outright refused to see the proof I was willing to provide for something, but they still tried to convince me I were wrong. Maybe they see contradictions as sly and deceitful attempts to promote something wrong.
@theodore33 in most cases I suggest yes. However I've just had the unpleasant experience of the Post Office stealing my mail for a year. When found out & questioned, someone not in the plot accidentally gave me the bundle of mail stolen over the previous 9 months, they stated that the officially redirected & paid for redirection service, was to a non existant Post Office. The fact that other mail redirected for 12 months the previous year to the same location was of no consequence. The excuses made were "it's an LPO not a PO!", "We ran out of printed labels" (so why was it not delivered to my street address?), as my phone number & email address is known to the Post Office why was I not contacted. As a result of this theft I did not receive car registration & insurance renewal notices, bank statements, replacement Visa card which resulted in my closing the bank account to say nothing of the inconvenience of not having the card.
Now am I reading perfectly valid reasons for the theft or simply sly & deceiptful gaslighting to hide the fact that one or more people have been running a vendetta against myself or the LPO owner?
If this occurs then who is going to pay for it?
US city urged to pay each black resident $5 million [rt.com]
FrayedBear
Level 9
Jan 16, 2023
0
And can you honestly say that there are no equally disadvantaged white trash, Hispanics, FNP et al?
Are accepting the misdeeds and the contributions and willing to bare the karma.
OMGfreeyourself
Level 4
July 20, 2021
0
I suffer from White Male Guilt, many of us do. But there's no treatment and no cure. We will carry it to our graves.
BitFlipper
Level 8
Mar 18, 2021
0
Do you suffer from any other illness?
@Alienbeing it's not an illness. It's an awakening.
@BitFlipper No it is clearly an illness unless you did something racist. Do you feel guilt when someone yu don't know murders some else you don't know?
@BitFlipper Do you also believe in Original Sin??
Red Lives Matter.... all so called races traveling from Europe to USA kidnapped from Africa exploited from Asia and Latin America ALL BENEFIT FROM PRIVILEGES UPON STOLEN LAND FROM aboriginal tribes....in 509 years 1800 tribes were victims of deliberate theocratic genocide reduced from over 28 million people to less than 400 tribes that speak a single word of their own language....slaves were trained to murder us....General Washington murdered hundreds of us on his personal orders all 45 so called PresidentS USA are guilty of this ONGOING GENOCIDE reservation deaths last year were the highest per capita % of viral deaths due to poor access to medical intervention....RED LIVES MATTER ....USA must confess and make reparations to all.... raped women, exploited migrant workers from ALL COUNTRIES.... slavery is not as bad as genocide and it is racist to claim otherwise
Larry68Feminist
Level 7
Mar 12, 2021
0
Is it racist to have skin colour/genetic/cultural pride? Perhaps is the answer, as pride is subjective to the individual.
I have a sense of pride in the past history of the Britain and it's Empire, but I also have disdain for the way that it's Christian capitalistic superiority had done to the world. But now the Empire has gone despite what Brexit supporters appear to believe.
Where people divide themselves into them and us, then conflict will arise. Thus, society beating white people for being white whilst uplifting other peoples will cause a backlash.
The fact is, there is only one race, the human race. It matters not what colour our hair, eyes or skin is, we are all humans, ans the sooner we accept that the better.
The history has happened, it is what it was, and our present will soon be the past, get over it.
Sofabeast
Level 7
Feb 18, 2021
0
MizJ:
I agree. However, the UK and US differ a bit in this regard. If I drive around here with a pale-skinned human in my car I don't get pulled over; if I do the same with a darker-skinned human I do.
@MizJ Sadly the journey American society had taken is a painful one of segregation and reinforcement of subcultural failure - where social mobility is frowned upon and inner city tribalism becomes the norm.
I could write about this for hours - and have done already comparing it to the EU and UK!
MizJ:
@Sofabeast I took a curse in International Studies a few years ago. One of the important vocabulary words was xenophobia, it can be partly explained by fear of the unknown. More than 30 years ago I worked with people from many different countries. That job changed me from having fear/apprehension to having curiosity and appreciation. Looking back I suspect that my coworkers would say the same.
What’s wrong with capitalism? I think that you are referring to how mercantilistic Britain was in the past
@Heavykevy1985 Capitalism is a subject I can criticise for hours. But it can also be a force for good if used in that way. However, Trump.....
@Sofabeast Capitalism has uplifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system in the world. If you have a better alternative, I will wait, meaning that there is none.
@Heavykevy1985 Conversely there is the oppression that Capitalism has inflicted. As for a superior system there is of course Marxism, but that requires a far higher level of education and indoctrination into the religion of the state.
The underlaying problem with both Capitalism and Marxism are humans. Fact is, we are not created equal, some enjoy helping people like myself and have a strong sense of social control, some just want to take as much as they can by whatever methods fill those needs and others couldn't care less as long as their immediate needs are covered.
In the end, Capitalism is dangerous and greedy, which is why Marxism doesn't work because inside many Communists are Capitalists trying to get out!
@Sofabeast no. Marxism does not work because it is an idiotic utopian idea. Capitalism is the voluntary exchange of goods and services in the hands of private individuals. Marxism is an ideology based upon theft, coercion, and resentment of those more successful than you. I laid out a challenge for you and honestly, it seems to me that you do not understand capitalism nor Marxism. Capitalism allows for individuals to pursue their own interests and that has led to the advancement of mankind. Again, if you can name a better alternative, I am still waiting.
I take you know little of Marxism and Communism, let alone Capitalism and understand even less.
So consider Liberal Socialism, where controlled Capitalism is encouraged to expand for the common good of society and itself.... Oh that's almost Marxism, well I was right! Germany is closest to this and is busy building a European Reich in its image.
Marx observations are as relevant now as when he was alive. Capitalism so far, has short bursts of success for the few whist being unable to prolong it's efforts. As Capitalism fails, it adversely affects the masses, and when on the rise, rewards only a tiny portion (1-2%) of the population whilst fooling the petit bourgeoise into thinking they are free Capitalists.
The Marxist utopia is the ideal, but as long as people are people and without motivation, education and direction, then it fails. After all, people like shiny things and full bellies.
So far no large scale attempt to build a Marxist state has happened.
Now Marxism unlike Capitalism isn't based on theft (you got that wrong) but common ownership of all resources. Consider this, you may think you own a mountain, but you die and the mountain is still there and you're not. Another failure by yourself is coercion, Marxists work together freely because they understand the needs of society, Capitalists on the the other hand force people to bend to their will. Example, people work to pay bills, but the work is dangerous and poorly paid considering the physical and emotional risks, but without it, people go hungry and homeless as there is little alternative. However, you've not got it all wrong. Marxism is a 'Conflict Theory' and resents oppression, inequality and dehumanisation.
Just as I say that I'm unashamed to have been born in the north west of England I am equally unashamed to have been born white. That domebof my ancestors were Roman slaves flogged to death to build the Roman roads throughout the land does not make me want to sue present day Italians for reparations. Nor do I wish to sue the Irish for Brian Boru having stolen Dublin City from the Viking ancestors who for a hundred years built it into a place of considerable value. My white Irish ancestors who were shipped to the Americas as slaves to work on plantations do not spur me to sue the English government.
So who are these people who think because their ancestors were sold by fellow Africans to Arab slavers who sold them to the British that they have a prior claim to mine. No fuck off & get in line behind all the others who have claims extending back for thousands of years. Your action has just made me reopen my own claims.
I slso suggest that you will also have to prove that your life of slavey inAmerica was actually worse than the lives you would have had in Africa back then or now.
No I'm not ashamed to have been born white - I simply had no say in the matter - did you?
FrayedBear
Level 9
Feb 18, 2021
0
Thanks for the racist rant which totally ignores the reality of today. As if the Vikings are affecting the Irish the same way white supremacy affects black people in America today. The new racist trope of bringing up history a thousand years ago that does not affect the people of today the same way slavery just a couple of hundred years ago does people in America today.
When you can find Vikings shooting down unarmed Irishmen because Vikings are scared for their lives and the general population of Vikings are in agreement with shooting down Irishmen out of unreasonable fear, get back to us.
@redbai when did I last shoot you when you were fishing?
I can however see on the news every day black, white and Hispanic American military murdering other Americans in the name of police & public order measures in America to say nothing of untold foreign nationals around the world.
It sounds to me that you need to beg China and or Russia to invade your country to restore the "peace & rights" just as America has invaded Korea, Vienam, Iraq, Syria and many other places to overturn the racism & discrimination claimed by you. I didn't cause it.
If you believe that it is caused by whites & you find it intolerable my advice is for you to vote with your feet & go back to the place of your ancestors. And whilst you're at it apologise to me for your accusation of my racism! Perhaps you think that I should lobby my Government asking them to impose sanctions and militarily invade America to "right" your claimed intolerable situation?
It's all within the blindness of your failure to recognise & take responsibility for your own beliefs.
@FrayedBear Since I didn't say anything about you shooting me, I guess that's just a stupid remark you felt needed to be added.
The idea that America invaded anywhere to 'overturn the racism & discrimination" is just a fantasy you put in your head.
I don't apologize for the truth. You not recognizing your racist nature doesn't change that in the least.
@redbai to misquote xtian scrip "let him without racism cast the first aspersion."
@FrayedBear Oooh, he found a fancy way to say, "No I'm not, you are." Your use of racist tropes (and apparently being totally ignorant that you are doing so) says much more than what you want to convey.
@redbai you are pointing the finger not I. Seriously though you know fuck all all about me or the human rights abuses that have been perpetratrated against me. I sugest that until you pull your head from your butt & find the actual people causing your grief you do not accuse me of anything.
In family counselling what you are doing is called kitchen sinking - you are not specific.
@FrayedBear Human rights abuses done to you don't give you the right to minimize or ignore those abuses done to others or change the fact that they were done. You know, the assinine thing you've been doing since the beginning of this discussion.
@redbai in your head, not my words.
I wonder what your reaction would be if I threw words like asinine racist back at you?
@FrayedBear I wouldn't care because my words don't demonstrate in any way that I am an asinine racist as opposed to your's which demonstrate the exact opposite about you.
@redbai live with your belief, I no longer give a brass razoo - that's what your pitiful whining has done for me.
@FrayedBear Going through the trouble of demonstrating your racist nature is whining? I think you need to look up words before you use them as you sound confused. It looks more like you cannot defend the BS you've been putting out and are running away while yelling feckless insults over your shoulder.
@redbai no I'm not confused at your beliefs or ignorance just tired of it. Now please go & find someone else to broadcast your belief to. At nearly 3 am. I'm tired of it. Go & wallow in your own vituperative slander.
@FrayedBear Oh my! That sounds a bit like you're whining.
A question for the poster of this Poll.
IS it ALSO undue and unwarranted so-called ' Pride ' when, one like myself who has the lineal heritage of numerous Nations/races (Oh how I detest that word btw) takes this this pride in the histories of my Predecessors?
Am I showing RED Pride because I honour my Red-skinned Native American Ancestors/Predecessors and the things they achieved, etc?
Am I exhibiting Dark/Black Pride when I honour my Sri Lankan, Egyptian, S.E. Asian Ancestors/Predecessors and the things they achieved, etc?
Am I exhibiting undue and unwarranted pride when I honour my Australian Aboriginal Ancestors/Predecessors?
Hey there PEOPLE STOP thinking you ARE White and White ONLY BECAUSE way, way back in the dim dark shadows of years and years long passed ALL of our distant Ancestors were NOT pale skinned they were, more than likely, of a darker shade of skin BECAUSE they lived in a climate and environment of brilliant, Bright Sunlight and their skin colour ONLY change slowly to suit the new environments they encountered AFTER they had LEFT Africa and the Middle Eastern Regions and found their way into colder climes, etc, etc.
In EVERYONE of us, be we Black, White, Yellow, Red or Brown WE carry with us the Genes of those who made the arduous TREK from Africa to the rest of this planet and there IS no shaking those Genes off btw.
Triphid
Level 9
Feb 18, 2021
0