As non-believers, we often encounter religious people who strongly believe in scientifically untrue things. For example, some believe that the Earth is young - created by a God in the last 6,000 years ago and was fully populated with all the animals we have today. Most people know, however, that there is scientific evidence that the Earth is much older and that the animals we see today have evolved over millions of years. What if you were talking with an acquaintance and they started telling you that the Earth is 6000 years old? Would you politely tell them that their belief is wrong - possibly bringing up evidence such as fossils and DNA?
What if they insisted that you affirm that their belief in a young Earth was true?
What would you do if they were your employer? What if they made such affirmation a requirement of you being employed there?
Have you ever felt that you had to affirm something you didn't believe in yourself? What was it? What did you do?
There are a few actions you could take on this but it might not save your job. Employers and everyone else simply need to understand that when they get you to lying about things you really are lying. Even recently I saw an article that claims the earth shows evidence of a large massive flood in the past. WTF? Is it the Grand Canyon? Maybe it has hidden drains somewhere. Science is our best model. There is little evidence for having it your way unless it's at Burger King.
Perhaps a polite response such as "We can agree to disagree" is in order. No one has the right to insist you agree with their nonsense belief nor to goad you into an argument with them.
If an argument is attempted at the spur of the moment or in a social setting, I would think it rude to create a scene by engaging in one with such emotional charge. If challenged, I would probably offer only the most basic objections to their nonsense and then say something like, "this isn't the time or place for such a debate," and would try to change the subject. "You know, I heard the funniest joke the other day ...."
If the situation is with an employer, the only time such a conversation might be allowable is if you work for a religious institution. Any other employer could be in trouble with a hefty lawsuit, although with the current wave of religious freedom nonsense gaining strength, we might have more difficulty asserting this right for freedom from an employer's religion in the coming days.
Please just ask for evidence or ask a question that is disguised as if you are not asking for evidence. Example? Yes please . Fight fire with fire, Fight resistance to science with science.
This question is more nuanced that it may appear, at least to me subsequent to reading an excellent book by Israeli historian Yuval Noah Harari.
Your example is a good one to illustrate a folly most of us laugh off, and would not affirm absent a threat of violence. Easy peazy.
But what about other commonly held beliefs that are patently false, the kind Professor Harari discusses in his book Sapiens? There are many, many of these: the US is "real" when it, like any other country, is just an invention of humans and could go away; it is not natural for two males to have sex together; pieces of paper with printing on them and numbers on the corner, i.e. money, have value, etc. There are too many examples to list. Most of the false beliefs, non-scientific, are not religious, but they are true for those who believe them. I can spend American $$ anywhere in the world. People are willing to die for their "country", which has only existed in a nano-second of history.
So yes, the religious are easy to single out as non-scientific. We are too, folks like us on this site are just less so.
Interestingly this subject came up in regard to vaccines - with the proponents stating that is gets better results if you allow the person to reach thier own conclusions. Bringing to the forefront the MISINFORMATION that leads the person to believe the way they do. I understand this gives empathy , that anyone can be misinformed . We all revisit facts learned in the past and see if they correlate to TODAY'S info and reality. I am surrounded by VERY religious people & institutions ( which carries to politics too ) so I see the benefit of this approach , otherwise the situation breaks down and nothing changes - in fact most people DOUBLE DOWN and refuse to look open mindedly at the subject AT ALL. They will also refuse to communicate/ interact , and isolate from others with different views or insights about certain subjects. This can be emotionally charged if you have a DEEP relationship with the person & the subject matters to you ; and can resemble a landmine field.
People I am not connected to , I don't invest much energy in the outcome- I plainly avoid the conflict involved...it just isn't worth trying and could escalate swiftly.
Respectfully
I am happy that those who are sufficiently non compos mentis to accept as true the absurd claims of the lunatic fringe should be allowed to consign themselves to their own deaths.
@anglophone no exceptions / age / ect.?
@BBJong For children, I see such behaviour as being the responsibility of the parents, and I have no right to interfere. For cases of senility, I see very little point in me doing anything. For people in between these two extremes, no exceptions.
@anglophone I concur with those ideals
People should be able to believe whatever it is they so desire, so long as they aren't doing anything criminal, and I reserve the right to ignore them. As soon as someone attempts to preach to me, I walk away from them and they usually get the drift fast. They could insist however much they like, I still wouldn't care. As for employers insisting on such, I wouldn't work there, and they would probably be reported for discrimination. As for the last question, have yet to be in that position, not that I can recall anyway, and usually keep my personal views to myself.
I have never had an employer who was even remotely interested in what I believed in, except for my first full time + employer, the US Army. Then I had to swear to uphold and defend the constitution, and I was really OK with that and I would do it again today, in fact I've never stopped doing it. If it is an acquaintance who is asking what I believe in, that will depend on the social situation. In a work based setting I'm not going to advertise I'm an atheist, no sense in giving anyone at work any ammunition for anything. My work life and social life are pretty strictly separated. I've never had to have that conversation with any of my neighbors, and I've lived where I am for almost 8 years. The siblings I associate with are well aware of my beliefs. If any acquaintance starts spouting flat earth or other untrue BS, I'm likely to just walk away. I have given up on being the idiot whisperer. If I judge the beliefs a danger to me I may speak up, or may just remove myself from any contact with the. Some of the best life advice is "choose your battles." If it is endangering one of my offspring I will come out swinging, if not, they're a failure of the education system and I don't have time or strength to take that fight on.
You are best off not trying to get scientific with uneducated Christians. You are better off expecting they will believe anything from the bible. Tell the Christian they need to watch the left behind series and that they need to realize they have been left behind. It may scare the piss out of them when they realize the biblical bottomless pit is what we now call the universe and that they have accepted the mark of the beast-666 which is identification for taxation and government control. The biblical text points out what happens to those that have accept the mark of the beast and if they do understand that it could scare them shitless and shut christianity down world wide causing all kinds of worldly chaos on a biblical proportion when Christians find out Jesus character is Angelic lord of host Lucifer the devil.
I haven't met anyone who has laid their goofy beliefs on me, so I'm not sure what I would do other than leave when l have an opening. I might tell them I'm a non-believer. You can't fix stupid, so l am not going to try to get them to see it differently.
You can say that you respect their belief but that you don’t share it. And offer them a chance to hear what you have to say.
I was brought to only give respect when it is due.
Believing in fairy tales does not gain my respect.
@FrayedBear Well, I think the person is the one entitled to be respected, even when the ideas she or he expresses are not acceptable to us. Remember that there was a time when expressing atheistic or pro-gay and other ideas would have been generally considered not worthy of respect; and even now there are those who think that way. Let’s not turn into intolerants ourselves just because the tables have turned; they could turn around again.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". In defending the freedom of others, we defend our own freedom.
@Rodatheist And by doing so show the hypocrisy & contempt that you have of your own self by not being true to your own beliefs.
@Rodatheist " In defending the freedom of others, we defend our own freedom." No you are frequently acquiescing to the desires of others to control you. Identifying that many religious believe that you being Agnostics or atheist should result in your immediate death should be responded to with "by your belief (that non believers be exterminated) you put yourself into the 'do unto others' league. As you believe it is upto your god to exterminate, we do not have gods only ourselves".
@FrayedBear I respect your belief that by respecting the beliefs of others we show our hypocrisy and contempt with ourselves by not being true to our own beliefs, but I do not agree with it. The fact that you think that by respecting the views of others we are not being true to our own, gives me a good indication as to why our society is so polarized. I would love you to explain the logic behind your assertion. How is it that I am not true to my beliefs when I respect the beliefs of others? How come I need to be intolerant to stay true to my beliefs?
@FrayedBear It is not clear to me how would I be controlled by others just because I recognize their right to express their beliefs. Such respect does not mean I am accepting their belief or that I am believing what they believe. I just respect their right to express their belief. Suppression of the rights of others has never led to resolution of disagreements.
@Rodatheist And how clever is it to tolerate people advocating your death because you are not a true believer?
@Rodatheist did America stay out of WWII for so long because Americans thought the Germans had a right to invade Poland exteminate the mentally challenged, the Sinti&Roma, the Jews, the trade unionists, the Communists. Didn't Kissinger cause the deaths of many Chileans including their President in 1973, Clinton with Libya & Gadaffi, Bushs & Iraq . . .
@FrayedBear Your question is a good one, but you are using it to avoid answering my question, which is: how would I be controlled by others just because I recognize their right to express their beliefs.
I am going to answer your question in hopes that you return the favor.: it is not a matter of cleverness, it is instead the essence of one of the pillars of our country: free speech. There are white supremacists ready to kill me because of my darker skin tone, but by defending their right to express their ideas I am not giving them the right to kill me. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
@FrayedBear Thank you for such a great historic review, but again, by posing a question you are avoiding answering mine, which is: How come I need to be intolerant to stay true to my beliefs?
@Rodatheist You answer for me. In my eyes if you admit the sin - be it colour discrimination, xenophobia, belief in fairies, belief in religious rules that call for the death of nonbelievers, then you have no right to expect me not to call you out. As for being controlled by others you already are having admitted that you are at risk from being a minority in a majority white occupied country. Are you telling me that having to kowtow or even just modify your words & thoughts is not others controlling you? They don't need your permission to kill you - the fuckwits will just do it.
I suggest that when you've had a hit & run driver mow you down with their car in an isolated cul de sac late evening you may develop a different view of fuckwits having a right to spout garbage harmful to you & others.
I have.
@FrayedBear they would kill me whether I call them out or not. I agree with what you are saying. But what I am talking about is the larger principle of freedom. And restricting their right to express themselves is not going to make things any safer for us. In fact, their reaction may be even more violent as many of them are also paranoid. Restricting freedoms to attack deplorables is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
@Rodatheist exactly. I'm not advocating restrict anyone from teling fuckwits that their belief is fuckwittery. Restricting them from spreading their beliefs and infecting others is no less fuckwittery.
Your last sentence seems to indicate that we may be in accord.
I recently learned the expression cognitive dissonance. It is frequently observed and identified by others projection. I have never since early teens believed in subscribing to others delusions or not openly admitting any that I may develop.
The prime philosophy of the Houyhnhnms (Gullivers Travels) was that they were not given the gift of speech in order to enable the telling of lies.
It is not an unreasonable philosopy to hold humanity to and one that I have believed in since the age of 14.
@Rodatheist I've just read this post & immediately thought of you - "Yes! I was reading 'The Atheist Pig' comics, and went across a statement in this comic found ..."
Q: What if you were talking with an acquaintance and they started telling you that the Earth is 6000 years old? Would you politely tell them that their belief is wrong - possibly bringing up evidence such as fossils and DNA?
A: Yes
Q: What if they insisted that you affirm that their belief in a young Earth was true?
A: They would go away frustrated
Q: What would you do if they were your employer? What if they made such affirmation a requirement of you being employed there?
A: If it was a government employer, I would get the ACLU to file 1st Amendment law suit on my behalf. If it was a private employer, I might quit, but maybe not. If they harassed me at work I would file a hostile workplace lawsuit.
Q: Have you ever felt that you had to affirm something you didn't believe in yourself? What was it? What did you do?
A: Not that I recall
Anyone that starts talking to me about religion, flat earth, covid hoax, 5g causes covid etc. . . Anything that is against logic, common sense or science they are instantly ignored
Let's get at the WHOLE truth here.
First of all, I really don't have time to be an atheist or anti-theist; to me that would be Iike arguing with a 3-year-old about how Superman flies. A slow learning 3-year-old! To me the propagation of religious bull shit is evil. Small children should not be told the lie that something ever came back from the dead.
But there are humanitarian people from many religions who do honest, hard work. I have worked with them. They do not write on the food. "This food was brought to you by god". The food was grown by farmers and brought by truck or ship. Anyone that can't get out of their comfort zone needs to do a little rethinking.
I just say, "you're kidding, right?" And then look at them like they're CRAZY.
So long as their belief system doesn’t affect me. Their system may bring comfort to them. If they wish to debate me me so be it.
Here is a rock. This natural rock proves supernatural cannot occur. This natural rock is more powerful than supernatural.
Your science of nature can do nothing to disprove anything purported as being supernatural.
You must learn better logic to try and "disprove " to someone that has personal experience of supernatural. Just because a person has their evidence of supernatural does not mean they can give you their evidence. It would only be testimony of their supernatural and not a direct evidence for you. You cannot logically oppose someone else's direct experience.