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Active Mormon To Agnostic
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
The great favour that the LDS did me was in getting out I learned how to view religion objectively, learned how to argue on their own terms and discovered just how deep the brain washing goes.
Consequently once on the road to recovery from Mormonism I began viewing and investigating religion as a whole in the same way, and in the same way I found it wanting.
What Joseph's myth did was nothing new. Nor was how he did it was not new and why he did it was the least original of all, he wanted money and power.
Every cult leader has done the same thing for the same reasons since the day when Ugg the first woke up one day and realised all the other Ugs and Ugweenas were dumber than he was and would believe any rubbish he cared to tell them.
Ugg 1.0 then changed his name to Father Ugg stuck his head in his hat and said the sun had spoken to him through a holy stone, and told him that unless the tribe started giving him 10% of the Sabre Tooth tiger meat and first crack at all the virgins, it would stop shining on them and make the winter come early.
Some like Arg laughed at him.
Of course when winter did come Father Ugg was being buried in more virgins and dino meat than he could cope with, and Arg was being burned alive for angering the sun.
Eventually Ugg told them they were forgiven and the sun might come back in a week or so, if they continued to be "good".
We maybe today's versions of Arg, but thanks to secular law and the internet the Uggs cannot burn us or shame us or lie to us anymore, much as they might want to, which is why the days of formal religion are numbered and people are leaving the LDS in a tidal wave of disgust and awakening reason.
Good luck and welcome to the real world.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
The great favour that the LDS did me was in getting out I learned how to view religion objectively, learned how to argue on their own terms and discovered just how deep the brain washing goes.
Consequently once on the road to recovery from Mormonism I began viewing and investigating religion as a whole in the same way, and in the same way I found it wanting.
What Joseph's myth did was nothing new. Nor was how he did it was not new and why he did it was the least original of all, he wanted money and power.
Every cult leader has done the same thing for the same reasons since the day when Ugg the first woke up one day and realised all the other Ugs and Ugweenas were dumber than he was and would believe any rubbish he cared to tell them.
Ugg 1.0 then changed his name to Father Ugg stuck his head in his hat and said the sun had spoken to him through a holy stone, and told him that unless the tribe started giving him 10% of the Sabre Tooth tiger meat and first crack at all the virgins, it would stop shining on them and make the winter come early.
Some like Arg laughed at him.
Of course when winter did come Father Ugg was being buried in more virgins and dino meat than he could cope with, and Arg was being burned alive for angering the sun.
Eventually Ugg told them they were forgiven and the sun might come back in a week or so, if they continued to be "good".
We maybe today's versions of Arg, but thanks to secular law and the internet the Uggs cannot burn us or shame us or lie to us anymore, much as they might want to, which is why the days of formal religion are numbered and people are leaving the LDS in a tidal wave of disgust and awakening reason.
Good luck and welcome to the real world.
I'm so tired of getting trolled on this site, that I'm going to post stuff that is sure to upset the...
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
I fully appreciate where you are coming from.
I like you believe there are things, as yet, inexplicable by he standards of the modern world.
This does not however connote a belief in the supernatural, magical or religious phenomena to which these things are often subject as an "explanation".
A prime example is the so called "Aura" given off by living things, something dismissed as nonsense for many years, but now under spectrographic photography proven to exist as an electromagnetic field generated by the functioning of the body.
We now know some people do have an ability to "see" this field in the same way a spectrograph does, proving perhaps a genetic mutational ability in some or the conversely proving that an ability we all had at some time is being evolved away as unnecessary.
Remember that schizophrenia was seen as metaphysical phenomena, or possession by demons until it was explained psychologically, the fact it was explained did not alter the fact that it existed; it merely had a different and more rational cause than was previously thought.
I personally have no belief in an after life, but I do believe in ghosts, my theory being they are a form of mental imprint stored in media such as bricks or glass, either as an image, sound, smell or an emotional "feeling" and able to be played back to receptive individuals in the same way as a radio broadcast can be received by a correctly tuned radio receiver. (This idea is not original to me, it was first expounded by Victorian Metaphysician Elliot O'Donnell and then later expanded on by writer Nigel Neil).
I hope I have reassured you that we are not all trolls, but that some who may not agree with your terminology still understand and share in your investigationary processes as regarding the wonders nature still has to reveal to us.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
I fully appreciate where you are coming from.
I like you believe there are things, as yet, inexplicable by he standards of the modern world.
This does not however connote a belief in the supernatural, magical or religious phenomena to which these things are often subject as an "explanation".
A prime example is the so called "Aura" given off by living things, something dismissed as nonsense for many years, but now under spectrographic photography proven to exist as an electromagnetic field generated by the functioning of the body.
We now know some people do have an ability to "see" this field in the same way a spectrograph does, proving perhaps a genetic mutational ability in some or the conversely proving that an ability we all had at some time is being evolved away as unnecessary.
Remember that schizophrenia was seen as metaphysical phenomena, or possession by demons until it was explained psychologically, the fact it was explained did not alter the fact that it existed; it merely had a different and more rational cause than was previously thought.
I personally have no belief in an after life, but I do believe in ghosts, my theory being they are a form of mental imprint stored in media such as bricks or glass, either as an image, sound, smell or an emotional "feeling" and able to be played back to receptive individuals in the same way as a radio broadcast can be received by a correctly tuned radio receiver. (This idea is not original to me, it was first expounded by Victorian Metaphysician Elliot O'Donnell and then later expanded on by writer Nigel Neil).
I hope I have reassured you that we are not all trolls, but that some who may not agree with your terminology still understand and share in your investigationary processes as regarding the wonders nature still has to reveal to us.
Is there a synthesis between science and religion/spirituality that conserves intellectual honesty?
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
No, it is an impossibility.
Science is the uninhibited search for verifiable facts by means of investigation, observation and testing. It makes no claim as truth, is open to evidential persuasion and falsification, it is an ever expanding body of knowledge, finding and embracing answers where they lay until such time as they may be superseded.
Religion/spirituality begins with assumptions and presuppositions and seeks proof for them, disregarding and even suppressing evidence and facts that contradict them on the grounds that contradiction is a sign of falsity since truth is already known and cannot be falsified but must be accepted on faith.
There is no middle ground, there is no commonality of interest, the first is progressive the latter regressive.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
No, it is an impossibility.
Science is the uninhibited search for verifiable facts by means of investigation, observation and testing. It makes no claim as truth, is open to evidential persuasion and falsification, it is an ever expanding body of knowledge, finding and embracing answers where they lay until such time as they may be superseded.
Religion/spirituality begins with assumptions and presuppositions and seeks proof for them, disregarding and even suppressing evidence and facts that contradict them on the grounds that contradiction is a sign of falsity since truth is already known and cannot be falsified but must be accepted on faith.
There is no middle ground, there is no commonality of interest, the first is progressive the latter regressive.
Forest for the trees
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Not really, it is my experience that gestalt phenomena do not last, they quickly devolve in to an -cracy of one kind or another at best, or in to a cult of popularity at worst, in either case ceasing to be a true gestalt where the whole is greater than the sum of participating parts and instead becomes a collective conformity under the insistent or forceful guidance of a small cabal for the furtherance of their own objectives and a lie of the collective good.
I value my individuality too much for that.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Not really, it is my experience that gestalt phenomena do not last, they quickly devolve in to an -cracy of one kind or another at best, or in to a cult of popularity at worst, in either case ceasing to be a true gestalt where the whole is greater than the sum of participating parts and instead becomes a collective conformity under the insistent or forceful guidance of a small cabal for the furtherance of their own objectives and a lie of the collective good.
I value my individuality too much for that.
What is ethics? Doing the honest thing inspite of the consequences?
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Your personal ethics are the system of rules you apply to your life in order to gaurentee the maximum amount of well being for yourself and others about you and the minimum of harm.
Professional ethics are the rules governing a particular form of work that protects the practioners, clients and overall regard for that form of work.
Social ethics are the rules of a society, usually enacted as laws, that are supposed to govern and provide for the well being an reputation of a social system or ideology and those participating in it.
Unfortuately political and economic ideologies have replaced ethics as the governing factors in many western society, most professions and for more and more indiviuals as wealth has largely become the accepted measure of well being.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Your personal ethics are the system of rules you apply to your life in order to gaurentee the maximum amount of well being for yourself and others about you and the minimum of harm.
Professional ethics are the rules governing a particular form of work that protects the practioners, clients and overall regard for that form of work.
Social ethics are the rules of a society, usually enacted as laws, that are supposed to govern and provide for the well being an reputation of a social system or ideology and those participating in it.
Unfortuately political and economic ideologies have replaced ethics as the governing factors in many western society, most professions and for more and more indiviuals as wealth has largely become the accepted measure of well being.
I'm poor. I don't want to die ever. Please advise?
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Poverty can be overcome
Death is an inevitablity
Consider one a sporting challenge and accept the other as the finish line.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Poverty can be overcome
Death is an inevitablity
Consider one a sporting challenge and accept the other as the finish line.
Should religion be taught in schools?
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
We do not politically indoctrinate children and rightly despise regimes that do so, this does not mean that we do not teach about the existence of political philosophies and ideologies in school nor do we discourage the voluntary study of them in personal time when of an age to fully comprehend it.
By the same token...
The existence of religions in the world and their effect upon it historically and socially should be taught in school, since it is factual and pertinent, however the practice, doctrines observance and proselyting of religions has no place in educational establishments.
Churches are the place for such study if it is desired, by adults or those of a mature enough disposition to comprehend it.
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
We do not politically indoctrinate children and rightly despise regimes that do so, this does not mean that we do not teach about the existence of political philosophies and ideologies in school nor do we discourage the voluntary study of them in personal time when of an age to fully comprehend it.
By the same token...
The existence of religions in the world and their effect upon it historically and socially should be taught in school, since it is factual and pertinent, however the practice, doctrines observance and proselyting of religions has no place in educational establishments.
Churches are the place for such study if it is desired, by adults or those of a mature enough disposition to comprehend it.
Proof of no god?
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
*I consider atheism to be a religion*
That is your right, but is obviously and demonstrably based on a different definition to any theological, etymological or lexicographical definition in current common parlence.
* just as Christianity*
No, atheism is nothing like Christianity, it has no founder, doctrines, dogmas holy books or promises dependent upon adherence.
*because it states unequivocally that there is no god,*
Incorrect, the definition of the word atheism is the lack of a theological concept of a deity, nothing else.
* just as Christianity insists there is a god. *
Christianity acknowledges one a particular god to the exclusion of all others. As far as all other deities Christianity is as atheist as the most ardent of none believers in all gods. Christianity is the title for a form of atheism with a solitary exception.
*I would like to know the scientific proof that there is no god; *
The scientific method is used to establish, the true nature of an object, method or phenomena, their form of existence effect and purpose or use.
You can't establish the non-existence of anything; you can only construe non-existence by a lack of evidence, effect and/or perception until such time as one or more of these assumptions is proven incorrect.
*otherwise, I remain a skeptic and an agnostic waiting for proof one way or the other.*
Your choice of scepticism is admirable, however your reason for simply not accepting the default position non-belief indicates an underlying tendency toward theism rather than agnosticism.
Your initial post is therefore flawed and unanswerable
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
*I consider atheism to be a religion*
That is your right, but is obviously and demonstrably based on a different definition to any theological, etymological or lexicographical definition in current common parlence.
* just as Christianity*
No, atheism is nothing like Christianity, it has no founder, doctrines, dogmas holy books or promises dependent upon adherence.
*because it states unequivocally that there is no god,*
Incorrect, the definition of the word atheism is the lack of a theological concept of a deity, nothing else.
* just as Christianity insists there is a god. *
Christianity acknowledges one a particular god to the exclusion of all others. As far as all other deities Christianity is as atheist as the most ardent of none believers in all gods. Christianity is the title for a form of atheism with a solitary exception.
*I would like to know the scientific proof that there is no god; *
The scientific method is used to establish, the true nature of an object, method or phenomena, their form of existence effect and purpose or use.
You can't establish the non-existence of anything; you can only construe non-existence by a lack of evidence, effect and/or perception until such time as one or more of these assumptions is proven incorrect.
*otherwise, I remain a skeptic and an agnostic waiting for proof one way or the other.*
Your choice of scepticism is admirable, however your reason for simply not accepting the default position non-belief indicates an underlying tendency toward theism rather than agnosticism.
Your initial post is therefore flawed and unanswerable
The Case Against Free Will - YouTube
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
I am a big fan of Alex, his is clearly brilliant mind but this time he is way off and frankly is showing his immaturity.
He first chooses an over simplified definition of freewill and then defines that definition as being to subject only to want or force.
However "want" is not the same as a desire, which is contrary to the use implied here as it can mean both a need and a/or a desire and both of those can be broken down further to a needed desire, a desired need, a hedonistic desire and a necessary need.
A need can be define by physiological evidence. In some cases a need is necessary for daily survival, but still can be chosen to be ignored, as in the case of a hunger striker or a person fasting.
A desire can be traced back to either a subconscious need or desire for pleasure or for the avoidance of suffering, and so too are traceable back to an evolved psychological survival traits, that can when required be over come for religious, political or survival reasons, often in direct defiance of nature, logic and reason for motivations only of import to the individual carrying them out.
So since it is fundamental to Alex' contention that "wants" cannot be defined as to their origin claiming wants are untraceable is clearly fallacious' this is clearly a presupposition on his part.
If I can identify the removal of something, that thing must exist in order for me to be aware of its absence.
If free will is the ability to have acted differently
And I recognise force as a denial of the ability to have acted differently
I must have a recognition of the ability to have acted differently and of its removal from me.
and as no one and no thing forced me to write this or post it ...Free will
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
I am a big fan of Alex, his is clearly brilliant mind but this time he is way off and frankly is showing his immaturity.
He first chooses an over simplified definition of freewill and then defines that definition as being to subject only to want or force.
However "want" is not the same as a desire, which is contrary to the use implied here as it can mean both a need and a/or a desire and both of those can be broken down further to a needed desire, a desired need, a hedonistic desire and a necessary need.
A need can be define by physiological evidence. In some cases a need is necessary for daily survival, but still can be chosen to be ignored, as in the case of a hunger striker or a person fasting.
A desire can be traced back to either a subconscious need or desire for pleasure or for the avoidance of suffering, and so too are traceable back to an evolved psychological survival traits, that can when required be over come for religious, political or survival reasons, often in direct defiance of nature, logic and reason for motivations only of import to the individual carrying them out.
So since it is fundamental to Alex' contention that "wants" cannot be defined as to their origin claiming wants are untraceable is clearly fallacious' this is clearly a presupposition on his part.
If I can identify the removal of something, that thing must exist in order for me to be aware of its absence.
If free will is the ability to have acted differently
And I recognise force as a denial of the ability to have acted differently
I must have a recognition of the ability to have acted differently and of its removal from me.
and as no one and no thing forced me to write this or post it ...Free will
For those who have not heard about this site, check out Atheist Republic for some interesting and ...
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Love atheist republic, great site, also on facebook
LenHazell53 comments on Apr 2, 2018:
Love atheist republic, great site, also on facebook
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